Pit, you’re unusually quiet. What do you think? are these gentlemen right in saying that the Flankers Venezuela received are filled with outdated systems? that Venezuela paid too much for them?
[color=red]Cleaned out a lot of extraneous thread BS.[/color]
Ah, thanks, phew. I also think someone owes an apology to star49 for calling him a retard, but that’s just me. ๐ If we can’t discuss things without getting down to insults we might as well all go back and live in the dark ages.
Interesting……………….Yet, you made alot of assumption. Also, how to you explain the lack of interests in the long list of countries named as possible export customers??? Regardless, good effort……….:cool:
Thanks mate. These are projected sales figures, based on what is likely to be needed in each of the markets and given that the FC-1 would fit like a glove the requirements of these countries.
what the FC-1 now needs is a solid marketing team to get things rolling. I think they should take it the capitalist route here and make as much of an effort on marketing as they did in building this beauty.
PLAMK-II
Also Jf-17 already has optical MAWS so thats not gonna be something for next standard but the very current production run.
Ah, thats great, I don’t see why it shouldn’t be added with the first batch too!
also, I’d like that wide hud on the J-11 please while you’re at it ๐
Probably Harry. It’s not me, my employer would be less than thrilled if I was actually a foreign national ๐
Obviously everyone knows your Irish heritage, I definitely didn’t mean you ๐
Nice article.
Thanks ๐
It should be noted that I am not intending to bash the FC-1 as a completely worthless aircraft, but rather point out why it is not what I think is in Pakistan’s best interests to procure, and why it in reality isn’t going to see that much export success. Remember, Russia theoretically gets a say as to where the jet is exported.
Yeah, I agree that with the RD-93 my sales projections won’t work.
I do however think that the FC-1 is not only in Pakistan’s best interest, but is a God send.
wow thats a lot of responses!
thanks guys, I knew you loved me ๐ (err.. maybe the Indian crowd doesn’t but no hard feelings just my thoughts).
I wish I had the time to answer everyone personally, which I hope to as soon as I get some time but I’m beat for today. I’ll just answer a thing or to from the last post:
Actually this is a fairly common type of ECM where you use a small phase array to steer an interfering beam at the target. The ECM pods commonly seen on the Su-27 and J-11 use this principle.
true, but notice those are pods rather than being integrated into the frame (or am I wrong here, I WONDER)
Domestic WS-10A might be heavier than AL-31FN, so that could add 100 to 200kg more per engine.
I did a small comparison on the RD-93 / WS-13 and, basically it turns out that the WS-13 might be slightly smaller as well (on a tangent, this could mean it was designed from the ground up for a fighter OTHER than the FC-1). Interestingly it is still heavier and yet gives more dry thrust and even afterburning thrust, while the latter not proportionately higher (all this if my figures are right). See my article’s section on the RD-93 / WS-13 comparison table for hypothetical percentage differences in various parameters.
On carrying a heavy missile. It should be noted that the TC-2 from the ROC is even heavier than the SD-10 by 20kg. Yet the Ching Kuos, fighters which are closely approximate to the weight and power of the JF-17 carry them well, and can carry as much as four. So SD-10s, even as many as four, should be not be bother on the JF-17.
The SD-10, despite its weight, should be fairly maneuverable. A large part of this is the sawtooth wings on the rear. Although this may create additional drag, it increases the control authority of the vanes so that less deflection is required to make a turn, and the lesser the deflection, the less drag it causes.
that is true but the PAF tends to ask for a higher standard than our Taiwanese brethren did for the IDF. And the PAF values maneuvreability more – notice how Taiwan prefers the mirage2k over the F-16, perhaps more of a slash attack general philosophy to the PAF’s. It remains that a heavier missile is less suited for a super light class fighter, and the PAF would probably prefer the AMRAAM not only because of this but also because the latter is a known quantity.
On the radar, the redesign of the nose to for the DSI meant an opportunity to make the nose larger, while reducing RCS through inward canted sloping. With the nose larger, that means a larger radar. It was for this reason Grifo followed up the proposal for the Grifo S7 with a bigger version of greater range. The original Chinese radar for the JF-17 may have been the smaller KLJ-6F (the KLJ-6E is used for the J-7G), but the revised version of the JF-17 could have called for a new and larger radar, which is probably the KLJ-7.
man, you notice everything don’t you. shoot I wish I had factored this in into my article ๐ฎ
IMO, the revamp of the plane, with LERX, DSI etc,. and on the electronics (cockpit, larger radar, EW/RWR/MAWS suite) has made the aircraft a much more serious threat and survivable aircraft, especially when compared to older fighters. The final element is the communication links, which is where the PLAAF and the PAF will differ. The PLAAF would surely use their HN-900 and Beidou links.
agreed, but I think the PAF would prefer the Beidou over the US GPS and I have a feeling the Beidou would very soon be able to provide the required coverage.
Just another thing.
Our aircrafts are called Su-30MK2, that’s all, not Su-30MK2V, nor Su-30MKV, neither any other designation…
Su-30MKV is no known designation here and should not be used!.
Some recent information.
From January till May, 8 aircrafts have been received (in fact the first two were received November 30 2006, the next 2 were received December 26 2006, and the third and fourth lot were received in April 2007), flying training operations have been made from January and till May, have acumulated a total of 700 hours finishing the first stage of flying training for a total of 20 pilots (that includes WSO but is not known the pilot/WSO allocation, neither the flying hours allocation) and basic qualification of 6 flying instructors.
2 weeks ago (May 26) the first squsdron (Escuadrรณn de Caza Nยบ 131) was activated in a display where all the eight aircrafts flew.
Funny some of the top pilots of the Group are ex F-16 pilots (CO is last Chief of Operations of Group-16 and current Chief of Operations is the last US trained F-16 pilot from the original lot)
IF the Flanker-MKII’s are being flown by the F-16 pilots does that mean all the F-16s are already mothballed? Wouldn’t it make more sense to cannibalize and keep as many of the ’16s flying for as long as possible?
Great effort PLA-MKII.
I had never seen that comparison video of the F-16 and JF-17. Thanks for bringing that to light as well as summarizing the info on the plane in one place.
๐ cheers mate, FINALLY I get appreciated!!! ๐ ๐
I managed to spend some time writing up something on the FC-1. I’ve called it “A Light Sabre for the Third World: The FC-1 / JF-17“. I’d appreciate comments. Doesn’t look that pretty formatting wise, but I’m putting it up never the less, and leaving formatting for the weekend.
Wouldn’t have been able to write it without everyone’s contribution, particularly crobato’s.
the picture I still need to ID and give credits for whoever took it. was lying in my picture gallery so don’t really know but shouldn’t be difficult.
Its a little too large to post here and would probably cause a storm!
I’m currently working on a comprehensive article on the FC-1. Will either post it next saturday or the saturday after. stay tuned folks.
Sources, please? :rolleyes: It is curious some people who flew the AV-8S them remember such interesting history…..
On the other hand, exchanging aircrew with the Argentine AF has happened several times in the last 25 years. In fact, they gave us their lessons after the Malvinas/Falklands affair with the Dassault delta family in 1983-84 through exchange pilots.
Of course, when flying with us they are denied access to NATO sensitive material stored by the Spanish AF.
As a final note, the French gave info on the Exocet properly more than on the SUE, something of greater interest for the RN!:diablo:
On the Pakistani ROSE upgrades, can anyone give some detailed info on the ROSE-I,II and III standards?
hey Flex, these might help:
pakdef.info/pakmilitary/airforce/index.html
check out aircraft then mirage..
maybe I should clarify, he was not really comparing Pakistani F-16s but rather US F-16s. Obviously the really sensitive bits are monkeyfied. I cannot think of a country that would give out its sensitive EW information out. I know that Taiwanese M2Ks and Chinese fighters often play a cat and mouse game to find out what the other has under the proverbial bonnet. But neither would France put its most sensitive equipment in there, nor would the US put its on non nato allies no matter how pally they are. Recall the DRFM issues with the F-16s.
Such secrets are not revealed and thus a true apple to apple comparison is almost never achievable. I would think though that the Chinese are a bit ahead in EW systems vis-a-vis what india can muster for their fleet.
With regards to the Grifo.
I have not seen the Grifo S-7 mentioned lately. Its hard to quantify what is better or not. The talk about the ELTA 2032 is long gone and so is the Thales RC-400.
Whether or not, who can claim to make the better radar does not matter. What matters is who can test, certify and validate it. IMO, Grifo showed a cardboard mockup of the S-7 radar in airshows does not mean the radar itself physically exists or is electronically working. The process of developing, testing, integrating, certifying the radar will take years, and simply has no place in the current schedule.
On the other hand, as soon as PT04 came out, the plane had a radar, likely to be the KLJ-7. CAC had a year to test this radar, and compared to the Grifo, at least this radar is real and is physically working, not some proposal in paper.
If Grifo-7PG (the one on the F-7PG) is compared to the Chinese Type 226 used on the J-7E, the Grifo-7PG should be better. Against the SY-80 or KLJ-6E used on the F-7BG or J-7G, probably I would have more doubts.
Grifo S7 against KLJ-7? I would pick the latter because the former is nothing more than a paper project, filled with specifications, based on remodifying the Grifo S2000. The Chinese probably got a hold of the specifications then simply designed a radar exceeding those specifications.
In the end, I find unlikely that any export JF-17 or J-10 will end up with a radar other than Chinese because of the time and task of integrating a foreign radar does not match the cost to benefit, especially when the radars are of the same generation in electronics and scanning method. Certainly if you are still thinking of a mechanically scanned one. You have to think ahead, if i have to consider a foreign radar integration, you have to think AESA.
I find it astonishing that someone like Richard Aboulafia would have such outdated information.
Don’t mind but, I think we can talk about the F-16 MLUs in the appropriate thread – perhaps the PAF thread. But that’s just me ๐
can’t make out anything in that one..