If I’d known it was for Christmas I’d have gift wrapped it and tied it up with a big pretty sparkly pink bow, Tony!

youre all heart Andy!! how did you know my fav colour!:)

Hope to have it back together early in the New Year. Not a runner, but has a cracking history!

Kev

I am not saying its right. It is sadly the world we live in.

I fully appreciate and have great respect for your passion and opinion in this field. Would that most enthusiasts had but 1% of it.

Unfortunately not everyone is motivated by purely what is right. We are all part of the ‘human disease’.

I have expressed my opinion on what I would like to happen….as I am no mover and shaker in this field, I have zip influence, just an opinion.

The fact is that in order to give these two fine men a proper burial, will probably require an incentive.

I will just go back to ensuring my two current individuals are remembered as that is within my grasp!

The one thing I wish would happen when aircraft are recovered from lakes, is that they are conserved as there is something amazing about seeing a preserved/conserved time capsule as opposed to a totally remanufactured flying example (we have plenty of those!). But again, I have no say in that….as money talks and a flying aircraft with a combat pedigree is ‘worth’ more in hard cash….the historical worth is priceless and forgotten.

It seems that there is a whole pile of actual agreement here….seems a bit like the People Judian Front commitee (whose Loretta in this?!:D).

What if this was the course……

1. Recover Pilots’ remains only and give them appropriate burial.
2. Leave aircraft there.
3. Aircraft are then empty shells – would it then be immoral to recover them?!

Of course, like everything in life, this is simplistic. To efficiently and appropriately recover the remains would probably require the lifting of the aircraft as they are effectively containers making the remains ‘easier’ to remove. So then what to do with the aircraft? Scrap them ? dumb IMHO).

What I am trying to say is, whilst others may wish to argue motives for recovery…..if everyone (i.e. with the relatives wishes) wants the airmen recovered and buried properly and this would require the lifting of at least the cockpit area….the end result is the same:- pilots and aircraft on dry land.

In this life there are often by products of commercial effort….it is a fact. Recovery of the pilots would be expensive….no-one other than a Government, kind benefactor, public subscription or business person (who sees a gain) would be able to afford this.

The decent thing (with relative wishes) is to recover and bury the pilots IMHO. The by product is two aircraft lumps that you then have to decide what to do with. (I would want to see one conserved in its state, possibly near the lake to educate future generations on the role of the lake and sacrifices made).

We can, and have argued until we are blue in the face about why someone would recover them (i.e. primary objective)…but the end result would be the same and would surely please everybody!?

Looking forward to what the relatives may say on this.

Oh my golly gosh Kev!!! I knew when I wrote that bit someone would pick me up on that lol!!! I only had a few minutes to write my ramblings so could’nt be bothered to change it!!

I would not go too far down the road of wanting a combat history for the aircraft!

Many people ‘fought’…or do we say that all the instructors in North America etc and indeed in the UK did not do their bit? I think not!!! They did their bit and in my eyes ‘fought’ as part of the collective effort. As I have bored you lot before, my Grandad spent 1939-1941 teaching people to fly twins (before they went onto bombers)….he was dying to get on ops…but they kept him as an instructor (before they got fed up and granted his wish). Nowadays, aviation enthusiasts yawn at the careers of instructors compared to more glamorous bomber and fighter pilots…..not fair really.
These two guys were doing their bit…sadly they were not to reach fruition and do technical fighting….but they did their bit…..

still dont think they (the pilots) should be down in the bottom of a lake. I also feel that we as unrelated humans should have a say. Granted, it is mainly for the families…but what if the relatives dont really care?

Tough one…..which I am sure some have much better opinions on than mine…

With all due respect Rocketeer, no aircraft fought in the Second World War. It was the occupants who did the fighting. And with reference to these two aircraft (I may have missed it) do they have a documented combat history?

Going back to my earlier comment regarding finding the families. Surely, if enough people think these aircraft and associated human remains should be recovered, then efforts to contact the families should be made now, before any recovery attempt is made? Does anyone know what the families were originally told? Were they informed that their loved ones are entombed at the bottom of a lake? Or were they just told they were lost in accidents and the bodies unrecoverable?

Any moves towards obtaining permissions for recovery would have more impact if supported by the families. Would respective Governments wish to engage in a battle of wits against the families should they want their loved ones to be recovered? Especially in light of the fact that both Governments are now returning their deceased from current conflicts? If they don’t want them recovered then there they should remain, as should the aircraft.

Regards,

kev35

By the very nature of this discussion, we are keeping the memory of these two fine gentlemen alive. Of the millions in WW2, most casualties are ‘faceless’. This is my opinion (and let’s face it, I am the world’s leading expert on my opinion!):

1. Just because we do not recover the crew from some ships/planes does not make it right to do the same to these gents.
2. If the relatives agree, the wrecks should be recovered and the crew given decent burials .
3. The aircraft remains are a time capsule, how many aircraft that fought in WW2 are in their actual original paint? Not many. They should be properly recovered and at least one conserved together with all the cockpt contents*. This would allow furture generations to at least have the story behind two heroes.
4. In the future, fewer people will be interested in these unrecovered sites (as happens as history becomes ‘older’). We really must do all we can to remind future generations of what happened and what sacrifices were made for them to actually be there…..in the UK, few know that aerial battles happened above us.

*An Avenger was recovered (no fatalities) from the water off Shearwater and the stuff found inside was conserved for future generations.

Hi Matt, what are the prices they may go for, have you a pricey list?

I would imagine pricing would be in the region of what Lanc FN turret parts would be…..;)

We go back to dig out more next weekend, it will be the ‘Outcasts’ Xmas party digfest, still a few tickets left….

pm sent Bird Dog old chap!

Another thing Andy is the showing of a BBMF hurricane’s oxy bottle stowage cover off exposing the non-standard cargo area only used on BBMF aircraft.

It does look a good resource, though with copious use of coloured in Hurricane manual piccies….there are some static projects out there that have
accurate layouts etc for modellers…still looks ok though!:)