I haven’t seen the book yet but I was recently sent the following information about it:
About the book:
Under the Wire by Bill Ash & Brendan Foley
Bill Ash lost his US citizenship to join the RAF (RCAF 411 Sqdn) while America was still neutral in 1940. He flew Spitfires in combat in 1941 and was shot down over France in 1942. He crash-landed and was helped by the French Resistance, eventually falling into the hands of the Gestapo in Paris where he was tortured for refusing to give away the names of his helpers.
He was then sent to a series of POW camps, including Stalag Luft III, made famous by The Great Escape. He helped to lead major tunnel breakouts in camps in Germany, Poland and Lithuania before finally escaping in the last days of the war. He is still alive and well, living in London where he remained after the war and was awarded the MBE for his escape activities.
Sometimes very funny, sometimes heart-wrenching, Bill describes the humour and humanity that helped ordinary people achieve extraordinary things during the conflict that shaped our history. This week is the UK launch, also Australia and NZ (the book will be available in USA and Canada from October).
In addition to the above. The aircraft in question was, I believe, Spitfire P9432 lost 5th September 1940. The location given (after Googling) is Birling, Kent.
The original post in this thread was made by a Matt Williams over 5 years ago – possibly he no longer visits this forum. Maybe some of the current forum members can search their records and see if they can assist the Pinkham family who have replied to the posting recently?
There is a fair bit of info in the original post to give a few clues. Gravesend, Kent is the location at the end of the posting so perhaps this is also the location of the cross marking the crash site?
It means a great deal to relatives to have information about the place where their loved ones were lost, please check your records, or if you are local to the Gravesend area see if you can find out anything locally. This forum has provided some spectacular results in the past with less information than has been provided here, surely someone can shed some further info on the location of the cross?
Eames, Millar, Gill, Murphy & Booth as listed on the site linked to in previous post were onboard Lancaster I W4859 from 1662 HCU lost 12/12/44 during training.
Thanks for explaining the additional background info that you have relating to the crash, I still find it strange that the aircraft and bodies were only discovered in 1962.
Good luck with your continued research into this loss. You might find some more people that could help over on the RAF Commands forum here http://www.rafcommands.com/cgi-bin/dcforum/dcboard.cgi?az=list&forum=DCForumID6&conf=DCConfID1
Thanks. I don’t have a copy of the “HCU Losses” at hand at the moment. However, from what I have found out so far, most remains of the aeroplane with bodies of most crew members were not found until 1962. Would any crash report be filed by the RAF at that time?
Like I said, I can’t consult “HCU Losses” at the moment. Would you care to check what serial Chorley lists with that crew (if any?).
Ok, the serial number and crew in Chorley’s HCU losses for this aircraft are as follows:
Halifax II JN967, Sgt L Milewski PAF, Sgt S Manek PAF, Sgt S Babiacki PAF, P/O M E Wisniewski PAF, Sgt F Piwoda PAF, Sgt M Kozlowski PAF, Sgt J Rzetelny PAF.
The crew were all buried at Newark-on-Trent Cemetery.
The Chorley entry also says that 8 minutes after take-off, after climbing to 3,000 feet, the bomber crashed in flames……… It was ascertained that one of the starboard engines had caught fire and, it is thought, the Graviner system was operated before the propeller had been fully feathered.
It would seem to me that Chorley has obtained that information from some sort of report into the loss. The detail suggests to me that it was a report written soon after the loss (in 1944) rather than one written in 1962. Having looked on a map to establish where the aircraft crashed, I personally find it hard to believe that the wreckage and bodies were not discovered until 1962. What is perhaps more likely is that additional wreckage was discovered in 1962 and possibly some human remains. Due to the destructive nature of aviation crashes it was not always possible to fully recover all bodies complete.
A call to the register of deaths responsible for Newark-on-Trent Cemetery should give you the exact dates that the crew were buried.
As to your question about whether a report would have been made in 1962; if the RAF/MOD were involved then most likely.
Cees, I believe you are correct, however, I think there will be other paperwork relating to the crash written by the recovery team which may have been one of the MU’s in the area. Also possibly a police report?
Voytech, the Halifax crashed on fire at East Ferry, 8 miles SW of Scunthorpe, Lincs. According to HCU Losses by W R Chorley “such was the destruction of the Halifax that the cause of the blaze could not be determined”.
The crew are buried in Newark-upon-Trent Cemetery.
It would appear that the local Parish Council are looking to erect a memorial to aircrews killed in the Parish http://www.worldwar2exraf.co.uk/Aircrewnoticeboard73.html they have Halifax JN967 listed as lost on 11/11/44 but with a different crew?!
Archives from the local newspapers in the area might be able to help you or you could put a notice in the local press to find out if there is anyone who can provide more info. There should also be a crash report somewhere but I can’t remember where they are held – National Archives?
Quite by chance, The Queen; had a quick chat then went on my way. She was a surprisingly nice lady.
Hi Alex,
The AM Form 78 cards that I’ve seen have a space for recording the engine no’s but it never seems to be filled in.
Another possibility to consider – data for this claim comes from Tony Woods Luftwaffe losses site
02.03.43
Hptm. Herbert Lütje 8./NJG 1 Halifax 6359G 3 km. N. Venlo: 5.800 m. 00.08
A/c type and location match but different pilot for claim and date differs too.
Steve, thanks for a wonderfully written report on your day and congratulations on a job exceedingly well done.
Their props may have stopped turning but they will not be forgotten.
I applied for my driving test date during some sort of Civil Service strike and as a consequence was advised to apply as soon as I got my provisional as the waiting time for test dates was something like six months or more. Soon after applying for a test date I received a date back from them to say I could sit my test in two weeks time as they had a cancellation 😮 The biggest worry was that I hadn’t had any driving lessons at this point, so I booked a lesson every second day for two weeks (7 in total), sat the test and passed first time 😀 I was so shocked when I was told that I had passed that I was incapable of driving home and my instructor had to drive me home again!!!!!
Interesting Para drop’s too, just hang on to a strut out on the wing, when the pilot signal’s go, pull your ring on your chute, and the slipstream drag’s you off the plane, but it doe’s look just a bit risky 😮 .
Sounds like a fascinating programme. I’ve got this photograph of a parachutist which has always been a puzzle to me but your statement above sheds some light on it. Note the small platform on the wing for the parachutist to stand on. This picture was taken at Netheravon in 1937 during ‘Film Work’.
Chaps, it’s probably just a new marketing concept like the ones where you’re supposed to make up your own ending to the book only with this one you have to make up the beginning 😀
Seriously though, how annoying! 😡
I was looking in general but i have now found the MacRoberts Reply website so all the info i needed was there.
I have invited the survivor (Sgt Donald Jeffs) of the Shorts Stirlings (W7531) crash to XV Sqn’s 90th anniversary in May just after he has visited the memorial over in Denmark. I thought it was the least i could do as the aircraft is a big bit of my squadrons history. And also it will give him a chance to see the Tornado GR4 painted with the MacRoberts Reply shield on it.
We also have the pilot (Sqn Ldr Boggis) of the first Shorts Stirling (N6086) that was bought by Lady MacRoberts coming to the anniversary bash as well. Should be a good night all around.
Excellent stuff. Phill Jeffs website should have all the gen you need about MacRoberts Reply. His dads story of survival is quite remarkable. I do hope that Donald can make it to the XV Sqdn’s 90th anniversary in May.
I met Peter Boggis a couple of years ago at Leuchars. He’s a great chap and very interesting to chat to.
I’m familiar with the current MacRoberts Reply. I saw it on the ground last time I visited Lossie and it’s one of the Tornados that frequently fly between my chimney pots – although it’s normally going too fast for me to see the MacRoberts crest on it 😀
Hope all goes well with the 90th anniversary celebrations.