I was at LAAD2007 too. At Sukhoi stand there was a CG video with AA, AG and Air to Ship operations. In the AA video, the Sukhois 35 jammed and wiped out from sky 4 Typhoons ! 🙂 It was very interesting…

You should have asked for the CD/DVd and uploaded it somewhere.

150 jf17’s are needed as mirages are retired, J10’s can come with F16 then.

There is “cost” factor for PAF as well which needs to be counted in for any developing countries IMHO. So even if J10 offers superior performance It “might” not be viable to go for more J10’s and cutting down jf17’s.

Our jet levels are depleting as well, but we are in a transitional phase as bunch of fighters are being retired, soon things will change and change in massive scale, infact its in process already.

The climb was impressive… Power of 35000 lb*2 .

I’m currently working on a comprehensive article on the FC-1. Will either post it next saturday or the saturday after. stay tuned folks.

2 weeks , yikes.

I would think though that the Chinese are a bit ahead in EW systems vis-a-vis what india can muster for their fleet.

Still havent answered why though.

😉

Any one can post some cockpit pictures of jf 17?
how many mfd’s it contains 3? 🙂

Excellent post nick, If i recall, this is only HAL r&d.

Aeronautical Research and Developement Board ( AR&DB ) has hundreds of R&D projects sanctioned and going on isnt it? information is available from their site only.

It seems they are seperate from HAL?

From HAL’s newsletter,

The Sukhoi Engine Division, Koraput, has outsourced a significant portion of AL31-FP Engine (SU-30 project) components. The Division has been educating the vendors on requirements of aeronautical quality systems.

And from DRDO april news,

Shri S Ganesan , Sci D, Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE), Bangalore, has been awarded for his outstanding contributions for design and analysis of KAVERI afterburner system for engine to boost thrust by 50 per
cent with an efficiency of 88 per cent.

Tango, the crash proved fatal for them, RIP 🙁

A brief briefing on engine design capabilities on mod report 2007 on HAL.
Very brief but enough for a overall picture.

ENGINE DESIGN CAPABILITIES OF HAL

3.1 Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) is engaged with Design, Manufacture and Overhaul of Fighters, Trainers, Helicopters, Transport Aircraft, Engines, Avionics and System Equipment. HAL has a long history of engine design and development. However, no concrete achievement has been registered by the Company in its endeavour. The Ministry has furnished the following note about the development history of engine design capabilities of HAL:
“Engine Design Bureau – EDB of Hindustan Aeronautics Limited, Bangalore subsequently renamed as Engine Test Bed Research and Design Centre (ETBRDC), started functioning in the year 1960. ETBRDC was re-structured under Design Complex in 1980 with only some of the young designers.
Before 1980:

Initially, in the 60s the task was to design engines and engine accessories for the indigenous aircraft designed by the Aircraft Design Bureau (ADB). The piston engine PE-90 was designed and certified for use on HPT –32. However, the engines did not enter into series production. A hydraulic pump (HHP) was also designed and certified. This unit was certified and HAL, Lucknow Division took up the manufacture. An Air Turbine Starter was designed, tested and certified for starting Orpheus engines and this was series produced. Another task assigned to EB in the late sixties was the design and development of a 11KN class (2500 Ib thrust) turbojet engine for powering Kiran MKII aircraft. The project HJE –2500 was taken up and with the limited resources available. One prototype was built and successfully tested on the test bed. However the project was closed before the engine was fully developed and certified.
After 1980:

Pilotless Target Aircraft Engine (PTAE-7)
In 1979, ADE proposed to design a pilot less target aircraft for airborne target training purpose. The design of the engine of 350 Kg thrust was entrusted to HAL. The project initially was to be completed by 1985. The usual route of an engine design involves elaborate component testing and component performance mapping. Since the funds allotted were meager even for those times and the Centre started the activities with virtually no infrastructure, no component testing was possible. Thus all components had to be used directly on the engine. Apart from this, the design team was young and inexperienced. A number of problems, which cropped up had to be addressed to by analysis, trial and error.

Some of the major problems faced were-withdrawal of M/s Dowty Fuel Systems (UK) from the programme and consequent redesign of engine control system, fuel pump, alternator and power control unit with the country; rotor dynamics problems leading to re design of shifting; sea water corrosion problems leading to change of materials for some major components; ADE increasing their thrust requirement to 380 kg leading to higher Turbine Entry Temperature operation; starting problem leading to redesign of starting circuit and introduction of enrichment circuit; compressor blade cracking leading to redesign of blade number and thickness; burning of turbine nozzle guide vanes leading to improvement of flame tube design; turbine blade cracking leading to redesign of turbine disc twice; withdrawal of M/s.Microfusion (supplier of turbine casting) from the programme; mist lubrication system problems leading to prolonged experimentation and redesign of the system; EMI/EMC problems of power output interfering with spend signal leading to additional electronic components.

The engine was test flown for the first time in May 1995. Since then 8 test flights have been carried out with the mist lubrication system. All the major problems have been overcome and now the engine is under production. 14 engines have been delivered to power the Lakshya PTA.

Gas Turbine Starter Unit (GTSU-110):
When LCA programme was conceived in mid 80s, EDB proposed to design and develop the gas turbine starter for starting the engine. GTSU is a small gas turbine engine of 110 KW capacity. The experience of PTAE-7 was useful in cutting short the development time considerably. The successful starting of GE 404 engine in the test bed was done in 1998 and the first flight of LCA with GTSU-110 took place on 4th Jan 2001. All the flights of LCA so far have taken place with GTSU –110 as the engine starter. The unit has been successfully productionised to meet all the future requirements of LCA.

Shakti Engine Co-development:
Indian Army and Air force wanted engines with power higher than TM333-2B2 for Dhruv helicopters. An agreement was signed with M/s Turbomeca, France in 2002 for the Co –development of Shakti engine ETBRDC was entrusted with the design and supply of the oil pumps, oil cooling system, the filter unit and the external dressing. Engineers of ETBRDC also took part in casing modelling, rotor dynamics and stress analysis at Turbomeca, France.
Test Beds:

An aero engine needs extensive testing on a test bed before installation on aircraft. ETBRDC has built various test beds and rigs for over-speed testing of discs, ‘g’ load testing, blade vibration testing for high cycle fatigue, fuel pump and oil pump testing and PTAE-7 and GTSU-110 test rigs. A small high altitude rig was also built to test GTSU-110 to check the starting capability up to 6 km altitude conditions.

The Centre also has acquired competence in the design and commissioning of test bed on “Turn Key” basis and in online Data Acquisition Systems (DSA) for test beds including software development.
The centre has designed and built test beds for several jet engines-R29B, RD33, Pegasus and Adour. It has also built test beds for several shaft power engines-Garrett, Allison, LM2500, industrial Avon, TM333 2B2, Aircraft Gearbox tool rigs have also been built for CASA (MiG 29 aircraft gearbox) and Aircraft mounted Gear Box for LCA.

Future Scenario:
ETBRDC propose to develop into and Aero-engine house of international level in the years to come. Several projects are being envisaged to be taken up.

A twin spool Turbofan Engine is being proposed to power a Cruise Missile under design. ETBRDC will jointly develop this engine with NAL and GTRE. The engine is small; the technology involved is as complex as any bigger engine. Since the usage is for missile application, no external help can be sought and the engine has to be wholly indigenous. This is a challenging task and ETBRDC is confident that it can meet the challenge.

A fully indigenous Auxiliary Power Unit (APU) (which is a turbo shaft engine) has been proposed to power the MCA of ADA. It can alternatively be installed in Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft being proposed to be developed jointly by India and Russia.

To gain a better foot hold in the technology, it is also proposed to participate in co development activities of some engines with leading players in the world. Co development proposals for F-125 with Honeywell or Adour Mk821 with Rolls Royce, 250-C40B with Rolls Royce, USA is also under study. Participation as a co–development partner in the FT4000, aero derivative industrial version, with P&W also is envisaged.
The Road Ahead:

Two approaches are possible to bridge the extensive gap between Indian and advanced countries in the field of engine development.

A – Continue the indigenous development activities with national funding. Build design capability, test rigs, test facilities and expertise (man power, software etc.,) for engine development. Though expensive and time consuming this is the preferred way to create self-reliance.

B – Join with international design houses as co-development partners. In view of the limited expertise and resources available at present, till expertise is built up as explained above, the Indian side can only be junior partner. While 100% knowledge transfer from leading engine houses is not feasible since it is proprietary knowledge developed over a long period, this would however, give a initial impetus to engine development in India.

Following the above philosophy, HAL will be in a position to take up design and development of large size and complex aero engines over a period of time.

3.2 About the capacity utilisation of HAL in terms engine manufacturing, the Ministry has furnished information for the last few years as 99 per cent for 2002-03, 98 per cent for 2003-04, 95 per cent for 2004-05, 97 per cent for 2005-06 and 100 per cent for 2006-07 (upto September 2006).

3.3 Regarding engine design capabilities, Secretary, DRDO further informed the Committee as under:

“Worldwide, an aircraft building centers on two or three important issues – design and building. One is that ability to do what I call basic airframe, lending gear and integrating systems, and buying out parts. It may be avionics; it may be engine; and it could be radar. These are technology intensive products. Generally, you will find that the aircraft builder does not build engine. Boeing builds aircraft but it does not build engine. General Electric builds engine, and Pratt & Whitney builds engine.

We do not have an industrial base in this country for engine design. We manufactured a few Russian engines under license in Koraput. That does not automatically make you a designer. If you are producing an ambassador car, we could not produce another car. It is not that we were not producing the car but the design engineering capability is something very unique and distinct.

What I want to tell is that understanding a capability to productionize a part does not automatically gives you a design capability. That has to be nurtured and built. If I remember, in the DRDO presentation I did say that in building a capability, the design engineer takes up to 15 years. Building a capability as a chief designer takes up to 20 years. So these technology intensive works, up to some level, have been accomplished partly in the HAL in certain areas and partly in the DRDO laboratories in certain areas. For example, we have relatively done better in avionics; we have done better in lending gear system. On engines, there were two divisions working. One was on smaller engines, in the HAL Engine Design Bureau and the other was on the gas turbine. There was only one gas turbine research establishment of DRDO in Bangalore, which had been working, which had steadily taken up the power levels. At a point when the LCA programme started, there was thinking that their experimental engine would be converted into a potential engine for Kaveri. Kaveri as of today, has developed certain capability close to 80 to 85 per cent of what we need ultimately for fitment in an LCA aircraft.

They took 15 years to reach 85 per cent from the design stretch to a level where four to five engines are simultaneously under test. If you come to Bangalore, we can show you that.

Now, going from the 85 per cent to 97 per cent in all aircraft engines, the final thrust or the push is the most difficult area. It needs certain advance technology relating to blade, cooling and also vibration-free. It needs different materials and processed engineering.”

They have achieved succesfully around 17000 lb’s~1800lb’s.

.34 The Ministry supplied the following information on Kaveri
Engine :—

“The project on ‘Design and Development of Kaveri Engine’ was
originally sanctioned in April 1989 to Gas Turbine Research
Establishment (GTRE), Bangalore at a cost of Rs. 382.81 crores with
a PDC of 93 months. Government had approved revision of cost
to Rs. 1386 crores and extension of PDC as Dec. 2004, which was
further revised to Rs. 2839 crores with PDC Dec. 2009. While
revising the cost, it was decided to execute the project in two
phases, first phase for interim flight trials and to demonstrate
reliability of the engine and second phase to demonstrate full
performance of the engine.

The scope of the project is to design, develop, test and type certify
the Kaveri engine to meet the specific needs of the LCA. Kaveri
engine is an advanced technology, 80k thrust class, twin pool, low
bypass (ratio) augmented turbofan engine.

The engine incorporates flat rated concept in order to compensate
for thrust drop due to high ambient and high forward speed
conditions. The engine will have Full Authority Digital Electronic
Control Unit and a dedicated engine accessory gear box. Design
of the engine, sub systems, and components have been completed
and sixteen Kaveri engines have been fabricated with equivalent
sets.

The basic light-up characteristics, aero-mechanical integrity, vibration
signature of the engine have been established. The flat rating
concept and wind milling starts have been demonstrated. Kabini
(Kaveri Core Engine) has also been tested on the high altitude test
bed in Russia where it was established that the thrust and fuel
consumption performance were close to the design intent. As on
date a total of about 1425 hour of testing has been carried out on
these prototype engines. Jet Fuel Starter (JFS) systems for starting
Kaveri engine has been indigenously developed with assistance
from GTRE, Bangalore by HAL and is being integrated with Kaveri
engine at GTRE, Bangalore.

Two version of engines are envisaged namely, K-9 standard engines
for integration of first flight with LCA and K10 standard engines
for final production and integration on LCA”.

8.35 The Ministry was asked how much amount was spent on the
Kaveri Engine till date and the reasons for cost escalation, the Ministry
replied as under:—

“The project has incurred an expenditure of Rs. 1459.79 Crore till
date against the sanctioned cost of Rs. 2839 Crore. The reasons for
cost escalation are changes in specification as a result of pre-review
conducted by three reputed engine houses in the world, change in
scope of work, redesign of component system, sanctions imposed
by the United States, cost estimates was carried out in 1985 which
is obviously non-realistic in today’s scenario, denial of testing time
and slot by agencies abroad as per the requirement, lack of
infrastructure for manufacturing and testing of engine in the
country.”

8.36 When asked about the reasons for delay in development and
integration of Kaveri engine and carrying out the mid-term review
regarding development of Kaveri engine, the Ministry replied as under:—

• “Challenges of ab-initio engine development,
• Incorporation of cutting edge technologies,
• Effect of post 1998 US Sanctions,
• Design review of all critical systems by leading engine house
in the world,
• Emergence of enhanced number of Hours of engine testing
before first flight on aircraft, etc.”

Regular Monthly, Quarterly & Six monthly reviews are being done
by Project Management Board, Programme Management Board and
the Apex Board (AEDB) chaired by SA to RM. In addition special
monthly review by SA to RM & CC R&D (AMS) and review by
Dr. Kota Committee on integration on LCA are being carried out.

8.37 The following challenges were faced in the development of
the Kaveri engine:—

• Decision of the overall thermo dynamic cycle of the engine
to match required performances over the complete flight
envelop.
• Decision on the overall lay out on various engine modules.
• Aerodynamic, aero-mechanical, combustion, structural
integrity and related design procedures in each of the engine
sub-systems.
• Conversion of the design intent into appropriate
manufacturing processes and technologies and related quality
control aspects.

All these aspects interact with each other in very complex ways to
determine the success of the programme. The project was also
delayed by sanctions and export control of critical components at
various phases of the programme. However, DRDO in the past
sought to utilize expertise from well-known engine houses through
consultancy and testing agreements. As a consequence of
improvements in indigenous design, materials and manufacturing
capability and input from various consultancies, GTRE has
demonstrated the operation of an engine which has performed at
100% of the design engine RPM and at about 80% of intended
design thrust. The engine has also undergone simulated altitude
testing and various aspects of its performances at altitude up to
15 km have been tested and demonstrated”.

Let’s be serious here $12Bil is not going to get you any serious stealth aircraft indigenous development. If i were Koreans, i would question the amount of my tax dollars going toward this. These days, everybody who wants money to develop combat aircraft will claim “stealth”…imagine telling your leaders otherwise.

I dont know south koreas money value but you need to figure, 12bn$ in korea can as well be 120bn$ r&d worth in US.

Same in case of India and China.

That means it is not necessarily for China to spend $40bn to develope J-xx, rather 3-5 bn$ would suffice IMHO.

Plus you need to know stealth just doesnt means stealth as in invisible but achieving,

1> Low Radar Cross section.
2> Low Infrared signature
3> low Visual signature
4> Low Acoustics
5> Less Smoky
6> Contrail.

These can be achieved by various tweak in design to different materials build for absorbing radar waves to ones own ways.

Developing technologies in its various fields isnt exactly hard, integrating them in a platform to achieve all six is hard.