joeyI suppose this is the end of the MCA?
Jai Hind!!:)
No, MCA and PAKFA has different roles to fill in IAF, While MCA will replace and augement Jaguars , PAKFA will augement and then replace some other types.
PAKFA-MKI
MCA-Jaguar-Mig 27
MRCA-Mig 21(part of)-Mig 23
Mig 21-LCA
Regardless whatever of the above speculations, MCA as far as I know is not dependent on PAKFA project.
joeyAn addenda to my earlier post:
I would expect Def.Min Antony to arrive in Moscow with some ‘counter-arm- twisting’ measures of his own-, INS Vikramadita debacle, Su-30MKI cost escalations, Ayni air base lease- which he may attempt to tie-in with the PAK-FA programme.
As for MMRCA, the tender has come so late in the day, I would be astounded if it went ahead in it’s present form as per RPF. I would expect Moscow to offer Su-30 upgrade packages (AESA, 117Cs) for a follow-on order, as a stop-gap for PAK-FA. The billions that would be saved from MMRCA could then be allocated to indigenisation/customisation of IAF PAK-FAs as there won’t be full ToT. Incidently, that would be the end of the MiG-35, but maybe Indian co-operation on ‘Skat’ could result?
Just my thoughts…
I dont think any AESA for MKI is planned at this moment AT ALL, We have good control over BARS (viz RC’s/MC etc) and we are unlikely to have a complete new radar on it.
Regarding PAKFA, predicting whats gonna happen now is going to be fruitless, there is simply nothing that meets our eye at this moment.
Ankush ofcourse the MRCA is going to happen.
joeyReports from Delhi indicate Def.Min Antony will sign the PAK-FA ‘co-development’/co-production deal next week in Moscow.
Considering his comments last week on Russian IPRs and the need for indigenisation/customisation of weapons systems & the slipping in-service date (and obsolescence of the MMRCA) in a decade- may sound the tender’s death knell.
Hopefully common sense will prevail, Jai Hind!!
Yes , Yes this is good news and if signing is next week, I think work has already started among both countries regarding PAKFA. This is like the MTA project, like IIRC work for MTA has started in India long back including its FCS and CLAW design (even theres a video out there) but government finalisation came this year only.
It will be very interesting time ahead to watch out which radar this new jet will uses as there are one AESA under developement by LRDE.
This is a news from August,
Indo-Russian agreement soon on PAK-FA
Rasheed Kappan
Flight trials in 2009; serial production by 2015
# Antony and Russian Minister discussed it two weeks ago
# It will be a joint effortBANGALORE: With an Inter-Government Agreement on the Indo-Russian Multi-Functional Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft, PAK-FA just round the corner, the Russian Sukhoi Design Bureau has worked out a plan to commence flight trials of the aircraft in 2009 and begin serial production by 2015.
The ambitious aircraft project would mark a decisive shift in Indo-Russian military cooperation, riding on the success of the ongoing Sukhoi-MKI project. The Sukhoi Design Bureau has conducted the preliminary survey and analysis of the multi-billion dollar project. Defence Minister A.K. Antony and his Russian counterpart discussed the agreement draft when they met two weeks ago.
“There is a desire to finalise the agreement as soon as possible,” a top Sukhoi Design Bureau official told The Hindu, on the sidelines of the Aero India 2007 aerospace exposition. Once the project takes off, the design, development and production of the fifth generation fighter will be a joint Indo-Russian effort on a 50:50 partnership. After a multitude of development stages, the serial production of the aircraft could start in 2015, the official said.
The Bureau had a series of technical consultations on the project with State-owned aviation major, Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL), in the second half of 2006. “We found commonality of interest between the Russian Air Force and the Indian Air Force. There is definitely a requirement for the aircraft,” he observed.
Different
Although the new aircraft will build on the Sukhoi-MKI success, it would be “100 per cent different” from the existing fighter.
For instance, 30 per cent of the airframe will be made up of composite material, the missiles will be fitted inside the aircraft and its stealth feature will ensure low visibility.
With a crucial active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar, advanced integrated onboard sensors, vectored thrust nozzles for superior manoeuvrability, the PAK-FA can be deployed beyond visual range and also the range of ground attack missiles.
The PAK-FA’s critical advantage over the Sukhoi-30 will be its speed and range. The fifth generation fighter will have a range of over 1,000 km at supersonic speed. This super cruise capability means the aircraft could fly at supersonic velocities without use of engine afterburners. Besides, its built-in test systems will provide increased aircraft reliability, the Bureau official said.
“We have worked out the basic system development approvals,” he said.
Once under mass production, the PAK-FA would replace the legacy fighters of both the Indian and Russian air forces, such as the MiG-29s, Jaguars and Mirage-2000s.
But is Sukhoi confident about HAL’s expertise in developing a whole new aircraft from scratch. The Design Bureau has no such doubts about the Indian defence firm’s capability.
“We have a good experience of collaboration with HAL on the Su-30 MKI. That project is moving dynamically. We could, of course, learn from mistakes and avoid (LCA like) delays,” the official remarked.
Though MOD report IIRC stated PAKFA to enter service around 2020~25 🙁 damnit, Hope I wont have grey hair by then.
joeyIt’s not about the thrust, but rather whether it can fit into Rafale or not.
And if you compare engine, it shouldn’t be about thrust, but rather T/W ratio.
Very much correct and the kaveris stated TWR is less than M88’s stated TWR at present (7.8 versus 8.5), however That will possibly increase in the K10 standard, as I said there is a possibility of even the engine will exceed the required design goal in the K10 standard.
About fitting, Safran has already offerred to integrate Kaveri with Rafale so that wont me too much issue I assume.
joeyNot strategic vision on their part but sheer kite flying on your part.:eek:
Kaveri is not even ready and you want it to replace a tried and tested engine on the Rafale. What will happen to the timeline, the modifications to the Rafale, the already high costs?
Please be realistic. 😎
The MOD are a bunch of idiots, but at least you can be more informed.
The MRCA is meant to be a “ready” aircraft with minimal customization for quick induction, and here you are developing an all new aircraft in a manner of speaking. 😮 😎
Boss….This is what I said and quote,
There can be NOTHING better than Rafale and later Kaveri integrated with it
Schema M88-2 Thrust (From Wiki),
11,250 lbf (50.04 kN) military thrust
17,000 lbf (75.62 kN) with afterburner
If Kaveri sees the light of the day, then We all know that Kaveri will comfortably exceed this thrust level whose (The K9 standard being made by GRTE) design goal is itself 20000 lbs and the K10 standard with lead-assist help is stated to even exceed that.
It does not makes any sense to produce or keep under service two engines of roughly the same class (by thrust), thus lets select Rafale, let it come into service with M88 engines, till kaveri matures and then put it/integrate in with Schemas help.
Meanwhile bring in Schema instead Saturn for the K10 standard in the lead-assist and vice-versa role to re-do the certain components which GRTE wants a re-done.
Rafale with >20000 lb’s afterburning thrust would be simply awesome.
joey\
😮 :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
You mean its crazy to expect such strategic vision from MOD?
IIRC I read somewhere France was ready even to integrate kaveri into Rafale.
joeyRight people, i wanted to know your opinions about something simple (wont start a new thread).
Considering all that has been going on for time and is still happening, when do yous think GOI is likely to sign a contract for MMRCA and when would the first machine arrive in India. My personal opinion is that signing of contract would take place definitely beyond 2010 (probably 2012) with first a/c arriving in 2015 or so.
You know vikas i have said it here before, I have stopped waiting for MRCA, It is useless to wait for something so bloody uncertain and unfortunately we are in such phase of time for it where for me I dont know how ‘enthusiastic’ I will be about MRCA after a decade of my life. Damn I’ll be getting old afterall. 🙁
joeyPlease let them get Kaveri 1 online first onlee…
I wanted to mean further the developement initiaves in India with sound economic position, kaveri 2 just came outa my mind, I’m sure there is no plan for kaveri 2 ATM and kaveri (or a bit uprated) will see them through to power MCA that is if there is even a MCA.
joeyA pity they didn’t take the opportunity to put an EJ200 in the NG. OTOH, Saab would probably be willing to do it, if India asked – and right now Tejas has almost the same sanctionable US content.
GE has literally billion dollar business in India , IIRC I might be wrong but it is close to around 10 billion dollars. I’m sure spares for IN20 isnt much of headeche at this moment. Thus sanctioning GE is not what India should be worried about, when there is a alternative in the pipeline to follow through but you see Gripen if comes will serve from first to last with GE, thats long term business where economics might change and sanctions might come into consideration.
There can be NOTHING better than Rafale and later Kaveri integrated with it, EW systems integrated in it from LCA to bring fleet commnality like use the Indian IRST which is soon to be available, use it interim with the RBE 2 and directly upgrade it with the AESA under developement by LRDE or elta 2052 whichever MOd chooses earlier.
Rafale with kaveri will also boost Home industry specially the GRTE guys will be in a sound economic position to further endeavour and progress aero engine developement in this country.
joeyhttp://www.domain-b.com/aero/October/2007/20071006_aerospace.htm
National Aerospace Laboratory working on regional jet
6 October 2007Having already delivered 10 indigenously-developed Hansa two-seater trainer turbo-prop aircraft, the National Aerospace Laboratories (NAL) at Bangalore is well on its way to developing the 14-seater Saras light transport aircraft, Dr AR Upadhya, director, NAL, told a packed auditorium at Zephyr 2007, the aerospace meet of the Indian Institute of Technology (IIT) at Powai, Mumbai, on Saturday 6 October.
Two prototypes of the rear mounted twin-engine Saras are already ready, with the aircraft having made its successful maiden flight, powered by Pratt & Whitney engines, on 14 April 2007, Dr Upadhya said. He said full flight certification was expected in 2009. The aircraft earlier was about 500kg overweight, which had been reduced by a greater use of light carbon-fibre composites and a more powerful engine.
NAL is also working on a four- and six-seater aircraft, presently named NM5, in a public-private partnership with Mahindra Plexion, and expects the first flight of the prototype to take place by the end of 2008. But the most ambitious NAL project is a 70-seater regional jet, which is to have a 50-seater turbo-prop variant as well as a 90-seater extended version.
Apart from regional jet makers Bombardier and Embraer, a number of countries are already in advanced stages of production of regional aircraft, including China, Russia and Japan, Dr Upadhya disclosed, adding that to be successful, NAL’s version would have to be lighter and therefore more fuel-efficient than those made by its competitors.
He was quick to add, though, that civil aviation was only one of the dozen or more divisions in NAL, and that the laboratories were technology providers to all sectors of the aerospace industry. NAL also has longstanding foreign collaborations with a number of countries, including China Aerosspace (CAe) and jet turbine makers Pratt & Whitney, with whom it has jointly set up a number of jet propulsion test equipment stations.
Among NAL’s more visible achievements is its expertise in carbon fibre composites, a field in which it has made a number of developments, including a pilot project to manufacture the raw materials. It has also pioneered new lower-cost methods through vacuum-enhanced resin infusion technology for making composite components (being used for the wings of the Saras aircraft), as well as indigenously developed autoclaves for curing, which are used by Indian aircraft maker Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL).
The composite wings for India’s prestigious fourth-generation Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) have spars developed by NAL, which has also developed the middle part of the fuselage and airframe, as well as the doors for the landing gear. Around 90 per cent of the LCA’s surface, and 45 per cent of the aircraft by weight is made from advanced composites.
Compsites technology is also used for repair of Indian Air Force aircraft, in making radomes for Doppler radars used for weather forecasting by the Indian Space Research Organisation (ISRO) and to make radomes for IAF aircraft. Upadhya said that the NAL has a number of collaborative projects in these areas with HAL. The institution has also specialised in failure analysis, and its scientists and engineers are always involved in crash investigations, he said.
Among other pioneering projects is developing shape memory alloys, to be used for the fins of the reusable launch vehicles being developed by ISRO, developing hydrophobic coatings to bring down laminar flow in aircraft and spacecraft, and developing the technology to burn fuel at supersonic speeds in scramjets, required by ISRO for its air-breathing hypersonic launch vehicle.
It has also developed a prototype for a 55 HP Wankel rotary engine, and is working on a microgas turbine, for which all the parts have already been produced and integration is underway. Another field is development of micro-air vehicles, for surveillance purposes.
In launch vehicle space technology, the NAL has developed Zirconi-based ceramic inserts for high temperature tolerances up to 3,200 degrees Kelvin. It has also developed mouldless slurry casting, nano-technology coatings for precision tools and magnetic non-contact bearings. A runway visibility meter its has developed is now used at a number of airports, including at Goa and Kochi, Dr Upadhya said.
Test equipment is vital to the field of aerospace, and this is one of NAL’s specialities, Dr Upadhya pointed out. Among test equipment developed is wind tunnels, both for aviation as well as space flight, aero-elastic modelling techniques, computational fluid dynamics, flow visualisation and pressure-sensitive paint, G-meters for aircraft, software to monitor aircraft performance, active noise control devices, and a semi-free jet test rig (with Pratt & Whitey).
Dr Upadhya complained, however, that many projects were being hamstrung by a severe shortage of human resources, as a result of both retirements and attrition, as a number of scientists had left the institution attracted by significantly higher remuneration from the private sector. He said the institution was not able to recruit the brightest and best talent for the same reason, and appealed to IIT students to consider the quality of work available at NAL, which the private companies could in no way match.
………………..
joeyAgni-I test-fired
The short range variant of India’s indigenously developed Agni series of ballistic missiles, Agni-I, has been test-fired from Wheelers Island off the Orissa coast on Friday.
The test-firing, termed as “users trial”, was conducted from a mobile launcher from the Integrated Test Range (ITR) launch complex- 4 around 10.38 am, Defence sources said.
This was the fourth test-firing of the surface-to-surface ballistic missile, which is capable of striking a target upto a distance of 700 kms.
There were “considerable improvements in its re-entry technology and manoeuvreability” 😉 since Agni’s first trial was carried out on 25th January 2002 from Wheelers Island, the sources said.
The second and third trials were conducted on 9th January 2003 and 4th July 2004 from the same launching site.
Defence sources said the prime objective of the trial was to fine tune and reconfirm the technical parametres set for this users launch.
Based on data from the network of ground radars, telemetry stations and observations from the intended impact point, results of today’s trial would be studied and analysed. Agni-I is a single stage version of Agni-II missile.
It has a length of 15 metres and weighs 12 tons. It is capable of carrying a 1000 kg payload and both nuclear as well as conventional warhead, they said.
The missile is powered by solid fuel rocket that propels it at a velocity of 2.5 km per second, the sources said adding the army has raised a missile group (334) for the 700 km range Agni-I ballistic missile.
http://www.ddinews.gov.in/National/National+-+Top+Story/AgniI+testfired.htm
…………….
joeyHmm…what more can you expect from VR.:rolleyes:
Anyway,so if there are two conditions namely: one,50 MT is a rocket engine for the Lakshya and two,they want to make a cruise missile out of it then
1.maybe they want to upgrade Lakshya into a supersonic drone?Or maybe a recce version which is supposed to be under development?
2.If indeed they want to make a cruise missiles out of it then the rocket will be used as the booster rocket?
The engine of lakhshya can be used for a cruise missile at ease (with lighter composite body that is), but I feel they are not going to do this, they are making a new micro gas turbine, ATM only thing from Lakhshya other than the propulsion (whch is uncertain if the same or upgraded will be used in cruise missile or not) which can be easily used in cruise missile is IMU et al.
So this Lakhshya to Cruise missile is ‘not’ something to be surprised of and is under ‘talks’ or reports for ages in media circle, but not this re-usable lakhshya (with uprated engines) drone type stuff.
joeyThat is Nishant, not Lakshya.
damn i must have been high back then….have to edit some part of my post (regarding publication) then but heh who cares, this seems BS you interpret it whatever way 😉 .
joeyIndian-made UAV To Become A Cruise Missile
First of all lets be clear here, a writeup from Vivek and DN is not something I’m going to believe until I see it with my own eyes or official report confirms His most reports are full of BS,
1. Russia simply wont violate MCTR so openly.
2. This moron never ceases to amaze me when ever project is named after a Indo-Israeli Joint Venture, we dont even know as of yet if Sagarika is a SLBM/LACM/SLCM yet his genius has predicted what it is which apparently changed in his different articles and that too it being a JV. Great. :rolleyes:
3. I suspect simply the Lakhshya payload might be increased (if that are the demands) with the use of TRD-50 engines (just rough guess even if that being used or your to believe this report), and it can delivery a good amount of payload and one vehicle can be used-recovered 10 times which is as usual case with Ptae-7. The so called re-usable cruise missile being ‘Lakhsha’ is pure hot air BS and so is the ‘mythical’ JV with Israel on this.
Any reason PTAE-7 is not being further developed for this project? If i recall correctly it’s thrust was between 350-450 daN. Nowhere near the 500 Kn figure but it’s relatively a much smaller undertaking than Kaveri and Gas turbine agency should be able to handle those specs.
Farooq, so far no report and publications (even publications which are of this year) I have read, that asks for changing of Lakhshyas engines or anything concerned remotely with changing Lakhshyas propulsion gear, I’m telling you this is BS, even if TRD-50’s are delivered it will be for a new project altogather. Heck the delivery of TRD-50 engines are not even confirmed at all and is probably a sudden newsflash just like the, project 971 hype. However We can all wait and watch.
The Rustam UAV under developement (note this isnt a JV as well), is going to use possibly a uprated engine based on PTA-7 or will/might use this new engine under scanner.
But I can confirm there is a micro-gas turbine engine under developement for qutie long time to power a cruise missile or new UAV/UCAV in NAL.
Meanwhile this is what happened with Lakhshya,
http://www.drdo.org/pub/nl/oct2007/oct2007.pdf
SUCCESSFUL FLIGHT TRIALS OF NISHANT UAV SYSTEM
DRDO recently conducted Development Flight Trials of Nishant UAV System
at Kolar range. The flights aimed at proving newly designed Multi-code
Multi-frequency (MCMF) Data Link System enabling operation of more than one UAV System in the vicinity. Target acquisition accuracy of Nishant UAV System was well demonstrated during the flight.Mobility is an important requirement of the Nishant UAV System. The UAV is
launched using a hydro-pneumatic launcher and recovered with aero conical
parachute and impact attenuation system. The high degree of automation built into the system reduces skill requirements of the pilot to a minimum during critical phases of launch and recovery. The aircraft carries stabilised payload for day and night missions. An on-board flight control and navigation system makes the aircraft fly in an autonomous point navigation mode.The flight trials were witnessed by a number of dignitaries including DCOAS
(P&S) besides the user representatives.
joeyNo need for comrade in arms ganging-up, calm down. Am referring to this report . Now don’t cry that all Indian journalist are pathetic and traiters, this paper is one of the authoritative in defence as well as general news.
Dude a Pakistani is telling a Indian about Indian media and their defence journalism? How many of them have you talked with personally? let me say this then ‘NOT A SINGLE ONE’.
Your talking just like a person who takes anticipatory bail even without getting threatened, no one is crying here, we are having a healthy discussion if you cannot take and post with what YOU KNOW ABOUT AND FROM WHERE AND HOW AUTHENTIC IT IS dont try to justify and ‘push‘ open source media UNOFFICIAL reports by taking a defensive position of “now dont cry all journalist are pathetic and traitors”. I know still you will insist on your point, because your a inside turned outside melon, your nationalistic jingoism will prevent you from judging something with logic.
But installed thrust being dependent on the mating of the engine with the air frame, the amount of air that flows into the engine (air intake), aero dynamism, cowling, wings, and so on, it can be lower than the static thrust. Informed sources say this is what has happened in the case of the Tejas. They say the installed thrust losses are “on account of issues with the air intake design and mating of the engine with the airframe.”
I have been pretty much clear to you, There will be no re-design IN THE INTAKE, the GE F404 F2J3 engines WAS NOT MEETING ASR (before you ask me for ASR), the REASON BEING HAL PAYING DELIVERY PLUS DEVELOPEMENT COST OF THE UPRATED IN20 VERSION (which means F2J3’s THRUST WAS NOT MEETING ASR). Pretty simple logic unless you’re a……..
Any intake re-design will take years, this is not mumbo jumbo we are talking of, i have spoken with guys who is DIRECTLY INVOLVED IN LCA PROGRAMME, any re-design of intake will take years and will push IOC/FOC date, which is not going to happen.
A new, more powerful engine such as the GE 414 (which powers the F-16 Super Hornet), whose core is the same as the GE 404 but is heavier or a similar engine, may have to be tried.
Yeah surely :rolleyes: , Well the F414 is a non-starter, because it will,
1. Kill kaveri programme.
2. IN20 is enough to carry on with LCA FOC.
3. If kaveri fails IN20 will still carry on, EVEN STILL I DONT SEE F414 COMING INTO THE SCENARIO AT ALL.
Well it is not in my interest to dump LCA, but dump the people involved in development for the last quarter of century and bring in new fresh talent.
Stop this you don’t know anthing and am the all knowing avaition specialist thingy, you can’t grow in stature by belittling somebody. Ya for one stop rediculing the defence journalists also, coz they know more than you can dream in your life time. They have more access to people that matter than you can fantasize your sources in your corner.
Well the first point is self justificable, you should write to MEA to hire you as HAL’s management guru.
The second point, your again talking with ZERO AUTHENTIC SUBSTANCE, other than making ‘yourself feel better’ by getting into defensive, I have these very simple points,
1. Show me authenticate OFFICIAL report of the thrust loss.
2. OFFICIAL report Of the intake-redesign.
3. If thrust loss, intake/integration BEING THE ONE responsible for it.
4. If thrust-loss DUE TO intake design is the case, IOC/FOC will be pushed way back, why cant you wait for that, MOD report should confirm it afterall?
5. F414 being considered.
If you cannot do them, stop justifying something, it is as simple as this, unless ofcourse you want to troll by pushing ‘something’ you believe in just because you ‘feel’ it being right.
btw, yes the defence journalists knows more than me in my lifetime surely? :rolleyes: without even knowing what I know, without even interacting with any of these defence journalists and how these reports gets into the media how do you know what they knows and what I know? 😉 Do you even know how Indian media works? Now dont be a inside out melon please.
Today your saying this tomorrow you will pick out a media report on any one of under options of MMR and try to ‘justify’ of having authenticness,
1. MMR is AESA.
2. MMR is Elta 2032.
3. MMR is hybrid o ELta 2052 and MMR PDP.
4. MMR is a Indian PDP.
5. There is no MMR its Elta 2052.
Give all of us a break, dont ruin this thread further if you dont have something FIRST HAND to bring here.
Is that behavior limited to ‘defence journos’ in India?
It seems, that HAL has a problem with its public relations management at least.
Sens it works this way, these orgs are controlled by MOD, they cannot put their own report ‘refutting’ another themselves unlike pvt industry, plus it is unnecessary anyway, what PR it gives them to the industry it is concerned? Any indian defence watcher knows this very well, that free media is not the one one should look for proper authentic information, and there are plenty of authentic report in official media, which gives the picture of what is happening.
Tell me a single media who brought the news of delay by almost a year and more due to LCA composite wings re-design around 2002 due to IAF’s request to carry a different missile (or something like that). These are authentic reports from official media of true issues.
This is the mopst simple isue, there are lots of other issues relating to media management etc as well, its a whole system, anyways going OT so stopping it here and keeping it simple.
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