Choxianwoodward9 The paint scheme you refer to was indeed applied before the F3’s were delivered.
XS417 will wear 56 Squadron markings (circa 1975) when ‘eventually’ repainted
I assume this means that the afore-mentioned aircraft will therefore be painted silver? Why can’t an authentic paint scheme be applied? It’s very depressing to see preserved aircraft wearing “representative” colour schemes – you can look at those in books. What’s wrong with simply restoring the colours an aircraft actually wore?
ChoxMe too to be honest, not that we’d ever care to accuse the media of being anything less than accurate… :rolleyes:
ChoxIf the newspaper reports have even the slightest shred of credibility, maybe we haven’t seen the end of MRA4 after all… If (and only if) there is a plan to complete the fleet, surely the project will have to be re-visited when the aircraft are delivered. Maybe the cancellation has been nothing more than a sound bite, and the true outcome will eventually be rather different? Or maybe the papers are talking rubbish again!
ChoxI guess we must agree to disagree on whether MRA4 was over-ambitious. My view is that a far cheaper solution could have been found by purchasing a P-3 derivative much like so many other countries have done, but by striving for more and more capability, the end result just becomes less and less achievable. Likewise, whilst I accept that the project might have started-off as a more realistic “rebuild” of Nimrod, it must be clear to anyone that a stage was reached where anyone could see that it was in effect a completely new aircraft which was only hampered by the incorporation of Nimrod components. It should have been killed-off far, far sooner. Just like TSR2 in fact as Peter commented!
ChoxMRA4 is a great and powerful RMPA
Exactly, whereas a P-3 derivative isn’t. MRA4 was over-ambitious. A far more affordable design (perhaps with off-the-shelf equipment) could have been adopted. As for the airframe, well yes, we know the background, point is, nobody stepped-in to stop the development when it was realised that it would in effect be a new-build aircraft. The manufacturer and customer knew what they were getting.
ChoxThere doesn’t seem to be any obvious future for the MRA4 aircraft. There’s certainly no likely customer and having abandoned the project, there’s no point storing the aircraft either. Likewise, the notion of keeping a “few” aircraft for any activities goes against the very objective – wiping-out an entire fleet and all the support structure that goes with it.
I agree it would be nice if a least one could be saved, just to remind future generations of the sorry tale. Somehow I can’t see Cosford getting one – they haven’t even got a proper Nimrod yet!
Speaking of which, has anybody heard anything more about this? One assumes that unless an airframe is dismantled and transported there by road, it’s not going to happen now? So the RAF Museum doesn’t even have an example of one of the RAF’s most successful aircraft? Or maybe Cosford just doesn’t want any aircraft parked outside, cluttering-up the pretty scenery again? 😀
ChoxI guess it’s fair to say that the options for a Nimrod replacement were limited but that doesn’t justify the MRA4 project as it was. Clearly, if a simple direct replacement of the original Nimrod concept was required, a P-3 derivative could have been acquired for peanuts. Alternatively, Nimrod could have been refurbished. What we got was a completely new design created from scratch, cynically using the original Comet fuselage in an attempt to suggest that the aircraft was merely an improved version of an existing aircraft. It was almost as ludicrous as the old purchase of F-4Js to supplement our existing F-4K/M fleet because “they were all Phantoms” …
But regardless of the shabby way in which the project proceeded, it had come a very long way at huge expense. There can be no good reason for dumping it now other than as a sacrifice in order to protect other assets. Showboating on the world stage with our formidable force of twelve F-35s will have come at a very hefty price.
ChoxBazv, you’re quite right – the last time I too can recall “bint” being used was by John Cleese in Fawlty Towers!
..there were no real revelations to get exited about… some (sometimes too close) formation work
I agree there too. As ever it was typical television fodder. A “celebrity” to utter a few inappropriate “oohs” and “ahhs” or in this case, the equally useless “I can’t believe I’m doing this” to which one felt obliged to utter “neither can I.” What was shown was interesting certainly, but you did finish the programme with a vague feeling of under-nourishment. I see no reason to hitch a ride on PA474 if one cannot offer anything more than a few emotive/toe-curling (delete as appropriate) words which could have been issued from the ground. A wasted opportunity I fear.
As for the close formation flying, has anyone got any idea what the purpose of that was? I mean really, why? It’s rather like tuning-in to watch David Dimbleby present Question Time, only to find some chimp sat on his lap without any explanation.
ChoxI think it fair to say that the whole notion of calling the MRA4 a “Nimrod” was almost as cynical as the marketing of the project in the first place. As has been said, it isn’t a re-worked Nimrod, it would be more accurate to describe it as an Airbus design with a Comet fuselage grafted onto it. There was no technical or financial advantage in using parts of the original Nimrod in a new design but it was obviously a good way of convincing Her majesty’s bean-counters that the Government was getting good value for money. A chimp could have spotted the chicanery from a mile off.
It’s just a real shame that the magnificent Nimrod thereby becomes tarred with all the sorry baggage which was unfairly heaped onto it by successive bad decision-making both from the manufacturers and customer.
ChoxRather like Nimrod AEW3 it would be nice if one MRA4 could be saved somewhere, to remind future generations of the sheer folly of politics.
In all other respects I guess it’s best that they are all consigned to the scrap heap. It’s not as if they are even Nimrods.
It’s a sad business. It does seem that as MRA4 became more complex and potentially capable, its projected usefulness became less and less clear. It seems entirely understandable that from the distance of an unbiased observer, the cost of continuing MRA4’s development would seem like too much to bear, given what has already occurred in the past years. On the other hand, it seems absurd that we have been “sold” the concept of future carrier warfare on the basis that we do not know what threats may emerge. It seems obvious that this is a similarly vital reason to retain MRA4, but the logic of this argument seems to have been deliberately overlooked.
The fatal blow to MRA4 was the RAF’s offer to sacrifice the aircraft in order to protect other assets. Once the offer was made it could not be withdrawn (the Treasury clearly wouldn’t have accepted that an expendable aircraft was suddenly declared vital again overnight). But when so much money had been poured into this project it seems utterly ludicrous to write it off at this late stage.
I suspect there may be more to this story than we are being told. There were hints in the post SDR questions in the House yesterday that much may change in the future, especially if the financial crisis eases. You have to wonder whether there might be some effort to purchase an ASW/MR aircraft “off the shelf” eventually, or (judging by yesterday’s comments in the House) even some sort of collaboration with France (Heaven forbid).
But it’s a sorry tale no matter what happens. It’s a tragedy that when Nimrod was of course a truly magnificent aircraft, its legacy will be the stories of AEW, MRA4 and a tragic crash, all of which cannot be attributed to the Nimrod itself.
ChoxPagen01 I think we can assume that Wittering and Cottesmore will go (as we’ve known for many weeks), Kinloss will go (as I’ve said for weeks) and that they will either be sold-off or held for non-flying uses. Scampton will doubtless go when the Reds move to Waddington to enjoy their final years of activity until the Hawks run out of hours. Linton must be a likely closure as training could be transferred to Valley. Leeming is an unknown quantity as it appears to be surviving due to local political pressure. But I suspect that if it does survive it will be as a non-flying base for RAF and other MoD assets. The Hawks will doubtless move to Valley or simply be replaced by civilian contract.
Lossie is a mystery. Instinctively, I’d say it would survive, especially now Kinloss is confirmed to close. The concept of closing two major bases in the same area seems like a political risk and despite yesterday’s refusal to confirm Lossie’s future, I think it may well survive. I think it’s likely that either Odiham or Benson will go but it’s difficult to see which is the most likely. Of course Coningsby, Waddington, Brize, Leuchars and Cranwell appear to be safe from any question of closure. Marham looks distinctly unclear – at least until Lossie’s future is fixed.
ChoxNope, it seems the MPA responsibility is to be undertaken by “our partners” so that Britain – of all countries – will be relying on others to patrol our seas. Hilarious.
ChoxYes, Puma upgrade was specifically mentioned. Typhoon was mentioned too and the plan is to have a fleet of 110 aircraft by 2020 but how many of these will be Typhoon or F-35 is yet to be decided.
I’m unsure as to what, exactly, the remaining RN is expected to be capable of?
But isn’t that precisely what I’ve been saying for days? What, precisely, is the point of it all if it isn’t simply world politics, as I kept saying? Cameron has just said that it is his aspiration to continue to allow Britain to punch above her weight. That’s what I kept saying n’est ce pas?
ChoxWell no it’s not more – it’s twelve as I’ve said for days. That’s what you can expect to be fully operational on the carrier. Hate’s the Navy? Don’t listen to him? Okay, glad we finally know the basis of your reasoned arguments!:D
ChoxWhat a load of absolute political crap. 12 JSF wow and routinely that sounds amazingly like – one in a blue moon
Funny isn’t it? I kept throwing this figure in over the past couple of days and most of the people on here evidently thought I was bonkers…
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