ChoxThose papers are certainly interesting (I’ve used some extracts in my new TSR2 book) but they don’t explain the wider picture. In essence, the various evaluations were shaped by other considerations. Most importantly, the desire to become attached to America, and also the question of what purchases the Australian Cabinet would actually sanction. It was quite a complicated business but the interesting aspect is that the long-established notion that Britain simply failed to “sell” TSR2 to Australia (and the wicked Mountbatten’s input, etc.) is in fact nonsense. They had no real intention of buying it in any case.
Okay, this takes us even further away from Vulcans – apologies!
ChoxWould there be any documents available to confirm Argentine interest if they approached through the FO?
Good question – one would assume so, but I don’t think anybody has ever bothered looking into the story as it evidently didn’t go anywhere.
ChoxAs I mentioned previously, the only real link with Australia was during the TSR2 saga and in reality it would probably have been Valiants that would have been sent to Australia in any case, even though some authors have suggested otherwise in the past.
The British Government was slow to make the offer of providing bombers as a stop-gap until TSR2 would be ready, so by the time that they made a serious offer, Australia was no longer interested. The notion that the aircraft would merely be positioned in Australia but flown by the RAF was just adding insult to injury.
Australia didn’t actually have any serious interest in TSR2 either. After an initial evaluation, their attention shifted to the USA. Many have speculated as to why, and blamed the UK for the way in which TSR2 was handled, or accused the US of underhand sales techniques, and so on. In actual fact, the real reason behind Australia’s preference for F-111 (and the interim F-4) was to simply become politically attached to the US. No matter how good TSR2 (and borrowed Valiants) might have been, Australia had no intention of adopting them.
Vulcan’s were obviously familiar sights in Australia though, but only in RAF hands!
Re the Argentine and Vulcans, is there much evidence to support that?
No there isn’t, just a much-reported claim that Argentina did approach the UK Government (Foreign Office) to explore the possibility, but the enquiry was immediately dismissed – allegedly. Personally, I’m not entirely convinced that it actually happened, unless it was actually a very vague suggestion made by Argentine officials who hadn’t even thought-out the practicalities or cost.
ChoxNo serious overseas interest in the Vulcan at all, other than a half-hearted expression of interest from Argentina which obviously led nowhere. Needless to say, a strategic bomber isn’t particularly high on any country’s import shopping list.
Lots of Vulcans did of course make their way to Australia over the years, but only as part of RAF exercises or as part of weapons trials. No connection with any interest from Australia.
The story of Vulcans possibly being sold to Australia probably comes from the days of the TSR2 saga when Britain offered to base V-Bombers in Australia, pending delivery of TSR2. They would probably have been Valiants however. Australia wasn’t interested because Britain proposed to operate the aircraft on behalf of the RAAF while Australia naturally expected to operate the aircraft themselves. But the whole issue was a non-starter because Australia was (by then) already firmly in favour of buying F-111.
The only serious potential overseas sale was for just one aircraft, when David Walton explored the possibility of selling XH558 to Nasa!
ChoxCherry I understand your point of course, but it’s a specious argument. If you seriously believe that RAFAT doesn’t represent good value for money, I can only suggest that you do some research to satisfy yourself that they do. Simply inviting evidence to contradict your view doesn’t mean that your view is correct – it just means that few people have the time or inclination to furnish you with the relevant information. But you can certainly ask yourself this – if there’s any question as to the team’s value, why do you imagine it has survived for so long, in the face of crippling defence expenditure cuts?
Making any judgement as to the team’s value within the overall mix of participants at an air show can be slightly misleading. Although they may (to us) be no more than one “act” amongst many others, they are inevitably the biggest crowd-puller at any event. That much is a fact. Likewise, they appear at far more venues than just the usual crop of air shows that most of us usually attend. They do encourage people to join the RAF – that is a fact too, and they are a very useful asset for overseas goodwill and industry promotion. One should never underestimate their importance in this respect. But beyond this, the Red Arrows are a national institution of which we should all be justifiably proud. They are the very best.
It’s easy to draw misleading conclusions from fellow enthusiasts who might regard the team as a mere distraction at times, but we are a small community for which the team has no real relevance. But to the wider public there is absolutely no question that they are by far the most significant “act” at any event. You can ask any show organiser about this point. They always have been and always will be, no matter what some of us might think.
ChoxSome intresting comments here – some grossly inaccurate ones too and some pretty offensive ones.
I should explain at the start that my background is that of a writer/photographer who has been in the aerospace business for roughly thirty years. I’ve been looking at the Red Arrows as a spectator since the 1960s (shortly after they formed in fact) so I’ve seen the team in different incarnations for a very long time. Professionally, I’ve also worked with the team, written about them, photographed them, and flown with them (in full display routines) numerous times. So the RAFAT is certainly a subject close to my heart.
Now, I would agree entirely that the current display routine can (and often does) look “dull” to some of us. There are reasons why of course, not least the weather conditions (which require the Team Leader to tailor the display routine accordingly), the position from which one is viewing the display, familiarity (seeing the same thing year after year inevitably has an effect on one’s perception), and comparisons with other aerobatic teams.
The key issue is probably familiarity. As has been said, the general public think the Red Arrows are brilliant. But when you’ve seen it all so many times before, it’s easy to become dismissive of the spectacle you’re watching (or not watching!). Before you claim that it’s “dull” it might be worth taking a look around you and seeing what everyone else’s reaction is?
The other significant problem we now have is the position from which we see the display – and the safety regulations which impose this upon us. Clearly, as the display routine gets further or higher from the spectator, the less exciting it is. But this is beyond RAFAT’s control. If this really does spoil your enjoyment of the display then take it up with the CAA. They are ultimately responsible for the way in which our air displays have been diluted to the point of indifference. It’s true that the Red Arrows used to thrill the crowds with low arrivals from behind the crowd which always took everybody by surprise and always gave one a thrill no matter how many times it had been seen before. It’s also true that the synchro aircraft used to fly much lower (often literally touching the grass with their undercarriage) but again, this just isn’t possible any longer, now that the shows are all so (over) regulated.
As for comparisons with other teams, it’s a difficult subject. It’s rather like comparing apples with oranges. Okay, some aspects of displays flown by other teams can look more exciting but there are inevitably issues to consider such as the different performance of the team’s aircraft, different safety rules, different aspirations, and the different visual appearance of the aircraft being used. All of the teams shamelessly “borrow” routines from each other so it seems fair to say that if the Red Arrows saw a manoeuvre worth adopting (and could safely do so), then they would. But if one’s disillusionment is merely down to wider issues of choreography, the best advice would be to write to the team and tell them what you think. Pointless criticism would doubtless be binned, but constructive comments and suggestions are always welcome.
The lines about the attitude of the team members are certainly worth a comment:-
confirmed to me what a bunch of big-headed prima donnas they are
That line is utter nonsense and quite offensive. They are actually extremely friendly and helpful people who are greatly respected by their colleagues both in the RAF and beyond. This ridiculous notion that they regard themselves as somehow “special” is an old myth. They are all drawn from other RAF units and they all maintain close links (professionally and socially) with their colleagues in other squadrons. However they are of course extremely professional and skilled pilots, and they take their job very seriously. To suggest that they are somehow “big-headed” is quite the most inaccurate and stupid comment I’ve seen in a long time.
As for the notion of re-equipping the team with different aircraft, it obviously isn’t going to happen. There was a suggestion that Tucanos could be used but this now seems to have been dropped a long time ago. As for using Typhoons, it is a non-starter. I discussed the abstract notion of using Tornado F3s with the team years ago and the practicalities of using maybe even only half a dozen F3s are insurmountable. Keeping even six fighter aircraft available and serviceable for the kind of schedule performed by RAFAT would be impossible and ludicrously expensive. Likewise, going back to the “good old days” when display flying was taken-on by an operational squadron just isn’t practical any longer. The manpower, logistics and money just isn’t there. Put simply, using fighter aircraft just can’t be done any longer. It was barely achievable in the 1950s!
The RAFAT will keep the Hawks and move to Waddington soon. They will doubtless stay there for another five or six years at which stage the Hawks will probably be nearing the end of their lives. At that stage (and in the absence of a miracle) the team may well be disbanded, as this will be the “golden opportunity” to dump the team without anyone having to take-on the unenviable title of “the man who killed-off the Red Arrows”.
Make no mistake, the Red Arrows are the best of the best. That’s not a cheesy sound-bite, it’s the truth. We might be a little bored with the same old routines but that doesn’t mean that the Red Arrows are anything less than magnificent. It just means that we’re used to seeing magnificence! They’re a great bunch of incredibly skilled and astonishingly hard-working individuals who do a great deal to promote the status of the RAF and the United Kingdom. To coin a phrase from an old song, we really don’t know what we’ve had until it’s gone.
ChoxEntirely predictable but very sad though, and I guess that most of the aircraft will not fly again. Given the circumstances, it seems unlikely that anyone would or could take them on.
ChoxI still morn the loss of F.8 VZ467 “Winston” sold to Oz!
I was just reading through this thread and I totally agree Adrian. It was a complete disgrace that such a magnificent and historical aircraft was sold overseas. Okay, I guess the owners didn’t have much choice, so I suppose this says something about the silly attitude of show organisers over here who would rather book WWII aircraft at the expense of anything else – almost as if history ended in 1945.
It’s ridiculous. Winston should be over here where he/she belongs!
ChoxThanks for the info zoot
ChoxWas the Nimrod’s appearance just the standard flypast then as expected? I haven’t seen any pictures posted anywhere to suggest otherwise so I’m guessing so. Did the MRA4 turn-up? Did the F-4F turn-up as I haven’t seen any photos of that either
ChoxSo pretty much word for word exactly the same stuff you spouted last year!
And you point is what, Bloodnock?
You’ve completely lost me know, unless you’re suggesting I should have changed my mind since last year!:p
Oh well, looks like you might get the Vulcan after all, which is definitely a bonus. From what I can see, it looks like Team Viper will steal the show otherwise, now that they have two Hunters, one of which is by far the best example still flying. Great news for the enthusiasts who are going, but it does rather take me back to what I’ve said before about Waddington relying on civilians to make the show worthwhile which, unless I’m mistaken, is surely not what the show is supposed to be about?
Anyway, hope those who are going have a good time, regardless of the politics of the event!
ChoxBest line-up for years? Wow, the past few years must have been even more rubbish than I imagined then! Maybe I (and my colleagues) are looking at a different show list, but the one I’m looking at looks like a complete bore.
Oh well, each to his own, but I’m certainly not the only person to think that Waddington’s show has completely lost any appeal that it once had. Last year’s show was awful but countless optimists said “wait until this year – things will be so much better”… and yet, it’s the same tired old show. I mean really, people are actually getting excited because there’s an RC-135 in the static park? Good grief, are folks really that desperate to find something to get giddy about?
Maybe I am being harsh on the organisers. Don’t care really, I don’t owe them anything nor does anybody else. I’m a punter just like anyone is, and if that’s what they think the RAF’s “showcase” should look like, well they’re welcome to it!:p
ChoxNo thanks – I’m off to London for the weekend.
The Vulcan’s still undecided and I doubt if many Vulcan fans will be foolish enough to go to the show based on hope.
Most of the display appears to comprise of warbirds. I’ve nothing against warbirds but really… is this Flying Legends?
The emphasis seems to be on the static display. Sorry, crowing about exotic aircraft (not that any of them are particularly exotic) which are simply parked in a line seems dull at best.
The RAF’s “showcase event” they say? Even Waddington’s own Nimrod is performing the same old single flypast even though it’s the type’s last public flying appearance (or so we assume). We can watch a Nimrod fly over the A15 any day for free.
The Tornado F3 will be gone by next year’s show. Flying at RIAT or Leuchars maybe, but not the RAF’s main event it seems… oh dear.
Even the last chance to see the Navy’s Jetsream display has been scrubbed.
Sorry, operational commitments, costs, logistics, I don’t care, it’s all so much hot air, and mostly just an excuse for a complete lack of original thinking and any will to stage an event which really does showcase the RAF. I guess the organisers could be blamed for lazily relying on an age-old show formula which is past its sell-by date, and their lack of interest in doing things any differently while Joe Public still buys a ticket. Then again, the RAF’s PR gurus really ought to be ashamed of themselves too if they seriously think this is the best showcase they could stage… although one gets the feeling that they don’t even have any interest in the show.
I think the men and women of the RAF – and the Great British Taxpayer – deserve something far better.
ChoxIt hasn’t got a fixed title as yet. I would imagine it will be fixed in the next couple of weeks or so but fixing the cover has taken a while because we had different thoughts on precisely what the title should be. Ian Allan is a major publisher of course, so they tend to do things at a steady but careful pace, and the book isn’t due out for some time yet so there’s no real need to worry about such matters as yet. As long as it has a title by the time it’s printed, I guess that’s all that matters!
ChoxThe Spit/Hurricane usually tuck-in at the last minute from their hold which is usually over Fairlop. The main formations get themselves organised over the North Sea using Southwold as the datum, but the Reds usually slot-in further down the route, and BBMF join-in last of all.
Re- earlier comments, bear in mind that Harriers did take part once – at the BofB 50th event. Very impressive they were too, although the rehearsal at Wittering was even better!
Sign In
