That is something nobody wants to hear about. It is simpler to put a stinky wet Ethiopian garage on equal with an air-conditioned vibration-damped missile storage hangar of the USAF and talk about supremacy of US weapons..

There’s always an excuse available to explain away poor design and/or obsolete technology, if one looks hard enough, I suppose.

What else should you say after shooting someone 14:1?

In the video made by the F-16 squadron that exercised against the German Fulcrums, I count at least 19 separate instances of the Falcon getting in behind the Fulcrum and tracking. True, the video doesn’t show the number of times the Fulcrum won the advantage (and it surely did), but the fact that the Falcon had the upper hand at least 19 times would seem to cast your “14:1” claim in doubt.

Also…which one of the 19 times that the Viper got the drop on the Fulcrum was the one where the German was supposedly taking it easy on the American, as you said?

I never said the video is lying or PSed. I said it ain’t objective because it only shows F-16 kills, forgettig the kills of the other side. So it basically says NOTHING.

Geez, at least take the time to read what I actually wrote (additional emphasis mine):

Looks to me like the Viper had little to no problem getting in behind the Fulcrum and staying there. Repeatedly. Not to say that perhaps the Fulcrum can’t do the same, but all we seem to hear lately is how the MiG will always stomp the Viper.

The point I was trying to make was that the F-16 and MiG-29 are pretty evenly matched. The video is one-sided, but it unquestionably demonstrates that the F-16 is quite capable of defeating the MiG-29. But people of your way of thinking (i.e., if it’s American, it’s crap) like to spout nonsense like the following (again, emphasis mine):

Regarding Mig-29/F-16 combat simulations, there is no effective tactics against Mig which F-16 could use.The F-16 is a simply outdated fighter compared to Mig-29

Furthermore,

They were. I have been speaking with them and was specially interested in exercises they took. They were Slovak AF MiG-29 pilots from 1st SLP in Sliac and German JG73 MiG-29 pilots from Laage. That is far more proof than I need to believe that and far more than you could ever provide on contrary.

More typical logic from your side of the fence. Claims made by non-American pilots are hailed as undisputable, unquestionable truth, while anything said by an American pilot is obviously driven by arrogance, bigotry, and stupidity.

Have you even seen a MiG live in your life?

Yes, I have, as a matter of fact. And in most instances, flown by American pilots.

Or spoken to a live MiG pilot to be so damn sure, comrade?

Haven’t had that pleasure as of yet. But I read accounts by both American and foreign pilots. Fighter pilots are all the same. If you ask an American pilot how he’ll do against the Russians, the response you’ll hear is that he/she will have no problems. If you ask a Russian, he/she will tell you the same thing. This is healthy, of course, because a fighter pilot needs to believe in his own invincibility in order to do the job. But the truth, as always, lies somewhere in the middle.

To a person of logical thinking, that is.

Because when Triple Nickels from 555th FS were given a tough beating in Slovakia I was not watching Fox News as my prime source of ‘credible’ information

Not sure where you got the Fox News reference from. I sure didn’t mention it.

but was there interviewing the pilots. All except American, because after the fights the Nickels were so damn exhausted and frustrated from the outcome that they refused to leave their debriefing room.

I’m curious as to how you were able to divine the exact mindset and reasons for the Americans supposedly not granting interviews. Did one of them actually say “I’m too damn exhausted and frustrated” before slamming the door on you or something? No? Then how did you – Oh, you just assumed that was the reason? Oh, okay, now I understand. I guess I didn’t think you were the type to jump to conclusions, since you seem to be of a journalistic bent — you did say you conducted interviews, and you expressed a negative opinion of Fox News, so I take that to mean that you care about journalistic integrity.

So your lack of it in this case is somewhat confusing.

As Slovaks told me, the commander of the base gave an explicit order to one pilot of Slovak MiG-29 to play a bit stupid and to get ‘shot down’ at least once,

Hmmm…I wonder what the key words are in that paragraph?

If you (and others) immediately dismiss the claims of American pilots, why should I (or anyone) put any stock in the claims of Slovak pilots?

because they were interested in keeping good relations with the Americans who were already rumored for their inacceptance for losses (Slovakia was applying for a NATO membership at that time).

Sure. The United States would oppose NATO membership to a nation because some of its pilots defeated ours in an exercise. That’s believable.

No offence, mate,

No offense taken. I respect your right to disagree.

but you REALLY think I need any ‘proof’ from a wannabe ‘expert’ from the States after that?

I’m no expert, nor did I ever claim to be. And no, you don’t need any proof from me. But I’d hope that you would seek more proof than a (by your own admission) one-sided interview.

I do respect your opinions. It would just be good of you (and all of us, for that matter) to acknowledge that they are opinions.

They like to say stuff like Bagdad was the worlds most heavily defended target in the world, just like North Vietnam was and North Korea was and Berlin before that, but as they have never flown over Moscow perhaps we can assume they don’t really know what they are talking about.

Are you talking about the same Moscow defenses that allowed a Cessna to land in Red Square at the height of the Cold War?

Just checking…

I have serious doubts that the test pilots were flying Flankers so that they could make a reasonable comparison.

The USAF has several Flankers (and Fulcrums, and others) out at Groom Lake which are flown on a regular basis, so I don’t think it’s a stretch to say that the Americans know everything there is to know about its capabilities. And therefore, makes them qualified to reasonably compare it to the Raptor and Black Widow.

You got this childish and naive persuasion that cost solves everything. First, a skilled labor price in the US is several times more expensive than it is in Russia, or even in Europe. That puts the costs in a slightly new light.

You’re assuming that American and Russian workers are equal – they aren’t. And I’m not referring to their competence or abilities, I’m talking about the technology and resources that the Americans have access to, and the Russians do not. Granted, that gap is not as wide as it once was, but the Americans still have a decisive edge in technology, especially in electronics, and at the end of the day, that decides the argument. The fact is, the Europeans (on an individual basis, not as a whole) are much more of a match for the Americans than the Russians are. If I were a Raptor pilot, I think I’d be more nervous facing a Rafale or Typhoon than I would be of a Flanker.

Now if we assume the F-22 vs. MiG-31(M) scenario is occuring over Russian air space then try to imagine how long it would take to destroy all those ground based radars.

I’ll grant that there will always be mobile systems that elude air attack – you can never take all of them out. I was referring to the permanent ground radar stations, which tend to be more powerful (and therefore of the most help to the Foxhounds). Those fixed sites will be clouds of dust. Every last one of them.

Yugoslav PVO (Anti-Air Defense) radars tracked and locked-up NATO combat aircraft right up to the 78th day of the air campaign… .

And that proves what, exactly? The Iraqis used to track and lock-up Allied aircraft every day. Does that mean they were ever a serious threat to Allied operations?

Factor in, if you want, the fact that the Russians have at their disposal technology that is generations ahead of that of the Yugoslav PVO.

I’d be happy to factor that in, if you will be also be willing to factor in the fact that the Americans have at their disposal technology that is generations ahead of that of Voyska PVO (is that still what it’s called?). Something tells me you won’t grant that, however. :rolleyes:

Maybe you’d like to revise your comment now.

No, I think I shall stand by it. In a conventional conflict, the majority of Russian air defenses will be knocked out in the first 24 hours with cruise missile strikes, B-2 strikes, and conventional aircraft employing standoff weapons. Raptors, supplemented with Eagles will establish air supremacy within a few days at most, allowing Wild Weasel aircraft to go after the surviving mobile AD units that dare to activate their radars. They will claim their share of American aircraft, but likely won’t live long enough to brag about their kills.

American technology is sufficiently ahead of Russian tech to guarantee a complete victory in an air campaign.

US hardware is generally totally hyped. They are not that good. They just had the luck that they did not fight any serious, good equipped and dedicated enemy since Nam. If the IrAF would have come up to fight in the first night, they would have scored kills. Many kills.

Dude. Step away from the bong.

Actually, the IrAF did start coming up the first night. They just didn’t gain much altitude. It was pretty much rotate, wheels-up, explode. They soon decided it would be safer to ride out the war in their shelters, or run for Iran.

And to suggest that the Iraqi pilots would have been capable of inflicting “many kills” on Allied pilots is insulting to anyone with any intelligence or sense of reason. The average Iraqi pilot was horrifically ill-trained.

Oh, and since we’re using the MiG-31M (that’s not in service) with the R-37 (that’s not in service), go ahead and add the IRST to the F/A-22 as well as the AIM-120D (both are which are to be added and I might add with a much higher probability than the MiG-31M and R-37 entering service). Now how does our battle shape up? 🙂

Sorry, PII, but you’re violating etiquette now. On this board, only Russian fighters are allowed to be credited with paper systems and weapons when comparing combat capabilities. 😉