Jules HorowitzMy flight to Maribor was on Jan 7 1944, it’s when I flew the unmarked B17 with the 2nd BG, as related in an earlier post.
I was in the 348th sqdn, 99th BG.
I forgot to mention that my groups primary target that day was Weiner Neustadt, near Vienna. Maribor was the alternate target.
Jules HorowitzMr. Horowitz,
Thank you for answering although I hoped little bit more information than I get. Your obvious luck was that you never become familiar with Vis Island. Also I suppose you do not remember any fighter encounters over Yugoslavia since it was secondary battlefield for the Allied and Axis forces since 1944. Most of losses in area happened due flak activity.
I believe mission to Maribor (Slovenia) which you mentioned most probably happened on November 7th, 1944. On that day two B-17G-50-DL from 346th BS and 347th BS of 99th BG reported to be lost in the area. First one 44-6408 was shot down most probably by flak over Maribor, while second 44-6430 was hit by flak and exploded in midair over Slovenske Gorice. Third B-17G-50-DL (44-6263) from 353th BS/301st BG crashed near Krapina (Croatia). If you can confirm that date from your Flight Book it would be very nice.
Also I could bring you other B-17 losses over ex-Yu soil if you say to me number of BS you was enlisted.
Best regards
JeTP.S. Only lost B-17G-30-DL (42-38089) in the area from 2nd BG/49th BS happened on 16.6.1944. After mission to Vienna pilot Shelby Vaughn lost two engines and crashed in Djurdjevac area (Croatia). That was their 38 mission and all ten crewmembers evaded.
My flight to Maribor was on Jan 7 1944, it’s when I flew the unmarked B17 with the 2nd BG, as related in an earlier post.
I was in the 348th sqdn, 99th BG.
Jules HorowitzJe T.
Re: Post #38
I was supposed to go to Vienna, but when I joined the 2nd BG , apparently their target was Maribor, so my plane bombed Maribor. I know thar I flew over Yugo several times, I don’t recall but i think I went to Sophia once.
I never had any experience with Vis Island.
Jules Horowitzlev,
I never left my seat when I was in enemy skies, also once on oxygen one didn’t leave their position unless absolutely necessary. The walk around O2 bottle held either 5 or 10 minutes of oxygen (I don’t remember) I really wasn’t too interested in the scenery, however flying over the Alps was an awesome sight.
Jules HorowitzApprapo of your comment
Mr horowitz you said earlier that you were Jewish did you realise the atrocities being committed during the war and what could happen if you bail out over enemy lines.
Lav, Apprapo of your comment,
About 1/2 way through my tour, we flew a mission where I was checking out my copilot in the left seat, no pilot finished a tour as copilot. This was a time when we had very few planes over a target. Our position was on the extreme right side of the formation, the plane on my left was shot down, 1 surviver. Of course, all the other people on our plane had guns, except the pilots, I was just a passenger. The following event took p[ace in about 6-7 seconds. I saw an ememy FW 190 coming in at me from 4 o’clock, his wing guns blinking and shells exploding in front of him, none reached us. I reached up and tried to pull down the flare gun that was in the ceiling of the plane to shoot at him, it had a live shell in it. In the heat of excitement I forgot that it was screwed in 1/2 a turn, I kept pulling to no avail, the German pilot broke away beneath me at the edge of my wingtip, fortunately he didn’t hit me. As he passed he saw my arm upraised, he thought that I was waving at him, he raised his arm and waved as he passed. I was clearly able to see him. At debreifing I related the incident, the PR officer sent the story to my hometown paper, several weeks later my folks sent me a copy of the article, it read “German pilot and Jewish pilot gladiaters at war, salute each other in the heat of combat”.
I then realized why we were issued brown underwear.
Jules HorowitzI might have told this story before, but bear with me if it’s repeaticious.–
Well into my tour, I was flying an unmarked plane that just came into our sqdn. On a mission to the Vienna area, we had a sqdn leader who was new. After getting deep into Indian country, while still climbing, we entered cloud. Normal procedure is to loosen the formation and maintain your normal position, when you break out of the cloud, you form up again. Since I was experienced, I followed SOP. When I was in the clear, I didn’t see any other planes, I was very uncomfortable because a single plane is duck soup for enemy fighters. I saw another B17 group about 5 miles ahead, going in the same direction. I immediately red lined the throttles to join them. My bombardier called and asked if he should salvo the bombs to lighten the plane, and pick up speed. I forbade him to drop the bombs, because I didn’t want to kill innocent civilians. I eventually caught up with them, since I was a guest and didn’t have an assigned spot, I positioned my self directly below and behind the group leader. I told the bombardier to drop when they did. We had no radio communication because we were on different channels. It was uneventful once I joined the group, we came back, they went to their base, I went to mine. Several days later I met some buddies in town from that group. Usually one talks about previous missions. They told me of a very recent mission where an unidentified B 17 joined their group, they called the group leader, he told them to keep their guns trained on me, and if I didn’t drop with them to shoot me down (the enemy had B 17s that would fly close and radio their flak batteries, air speed, altitude etc,)
I’m glad that I didn’t know about it at the time.
Jules Horowitzgrounded,
I take my hat off to the men in the 8th AF, they had the hair raising job of forming up in cloud, to get in formation after takeoff. We didn’t have that problem. My first few missions were as copilot, I flew with an experienced checked out copilot.
Re: formation flight- While I was in training we were losing the war and the big wheels wanted to get crews overseas ASAP, so our training was on paper, most all of our flights were cross country. There was a gasoline shortage, so many flights were to go to different bases refuel, get back so that the next crew could go to a differnt base, refuel etc
Jules HorowitzTo all of you on this website
I thank you all for your accolades, but at the time I felt that it was a job that had to be done. Since I am Jewish, I don’t think that I would have had a future to look forward to if the Germans won the war.
I never considered myself a hero, the hero’s were those people who didn’t return from the war.
Jules HorowitzDear Sir Horowitz,
Can you make little favour to me and visit the following link
http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showthread.php?t=47331
I believe you can help us a lot with your knowledge
Thank you
JeT
The only way I can help you is by you asking questions. I don’t know if I can help with the “big ” picture
Jules HorowitzDo you think you could climb back into a B17 and fly her now.
Since the war I’ve had 4 rides within the last 8 years. On 1 ride I was in the copilots seat, and had about 10 minutes stick time.
I have no doubt that in an emergrncy I would be able to takeoff and land the plane, provided I had a chance to go over the checklist first, and that someone would go through the checklist before takeoff or landing
Like a bicycle, once you learn you don’t forget.
Jules HorowitzMR horowitz,what made you join the usaf and did you have any previous flying experience also how long did it take from training on B-17s to actual combat flights.
dave…………..
In 1941 I saw an item in the local press about courses being given at a local college, (navigation, meteorlogy,engines, etc) it was called the CPT program (civil pilot training) of about 100 people in the class, 8 flight scholarships were awarded. I was able to get 35 hours in a piper cub, once I discovered the joys of flying, my goal was to get into the AACorps, knowing that war was imminent. My experience undoubtably helped me in the armys primary school. This was where the greatest number of cadets washed out. My instructor was able to solo me after 2-3 hours.
After getting my wings in Dec 1942, I went to B17 transition school. After
2 months (70 hours). I then went to Salt Lake City and was formed into a crew with 9 other people, I was first pilot, my copilot had just gotten his wings, After 1st and 2nd phase, the training that we received was all on paper, our flying was all cross country, at the time we were losing the war and they needed bodies overseas. I left the US in June for the ETO.
My first formation flight was on my first combat mission, in mid July.
Jules HorowitzB17
Ri The story line was generally as it was, the combat shots were real
lw Some tears ago while driving north, I visited my advanced training school, it was about a mile out of my way.
A year ago I was invited to visit Reggio Emilia an Italian city, that I bombed. They were celebrating the 60th anniversary of the bombing, it was completely expense free.
dog house I meet my ball gunner each year at our group reunion, we also speak on the phone several times during the year
Jules HorowitzI can only imagine Jule’s, just how scary that must have been!.
Brutal, and very gruesome stuff, BANG! and all those men and the flying machine they were in GONE!.
I think as a pilot, I would have been most nervious, when on the final bomb run, when you hand it over, and just sit there! with all the FLAK going CRACK CRACK CRACK! all around you.
Awesome stuff Jule’s, thank’s so much for sharing it with us all mate!.
It’s an honour for me, just posting with a real WW2 B-17 combat pilot.
You are a living legend mate!
Stormbird,
In a Sqdn formation only the lead plane “hands it over” to the bombardier.
All the other planes in the sqdn, salvo their bombs when the lead plane drops. The pilots are busy keeping a tight formation, which is not practical on automatic pilot. Also tight formation makes for close bomb strikes, if the lead planes bombs are accurate. Another reason is that tight formation makes for concentrated fire on attacking enemy fighters
Jules HorowitzStormbird,
Yes, Many times when going through very accurate flak. One time while leading an element (3 planes), the plane directly in front of me exploded (a direct hit in the bomb bay), we went thru the debris 1/2 second later.
Jules HorowitzXR,
I never had to make a belly landing, but I made many 3 engine landings which wasn’t the same thing.
grounded,
When I flew out of Africa, entering the plane, with the front windows closed, the cockpit temp was about 130-140 degrees F. As we gained altitude we started to put on clothes, at 25,000 feet the temp was -40 to-60 F, quite a spread. I couldn’t wear the sheep lined jacket because of close quarters, with a leather flying jacket over coveralls was all the clothing I wore, In the target vicinity I had sweat on my brow, condensation from the oxygen mask left about an inch of ice on my chest, and from the top of my thighs down I had absolutely no feeling. I often wondered that if I had to bail out would I be able to stand up and exit the plane.
In Italy we had to contend with mud and metal runways with its dips. In winter we had pot belly stoves in our tents, for heat. A large can filled with stones and gasoline provided the heat, It wasn’t too bad.
The worst part of our flying other then flak and enemy fighters was the extreme cold. I had 1 flight where I was aloft for over 13 hours
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