I’d definitely agree, particularly for smaller nations. When combined with manned fighters and UCAVs, they’d do well for even medium sized countries. I think double digit sams are the way to go for my country – Bangladesh. The terrain is also ideal with max coverage.

I wonder how that would go if the F-7BGs get an IRST (with the radar removed), can fire R-darters and have some kind of ram painted on them. Combined with HQ-9s and other layers, this could be a potent combination.

http://asian-defence.blogspot.com/2011/01/chinese-j-911c-fighter-aircraft-project_07.html

another chinese 5th gen?

I’m missing a program, but I recall seeing somewhere a V/STOL stealth carrier fighter too.. anybody got the picture? Had a fan in the middle.

I may be wrong, but wasn’t marketing outsourced by SAAB? Who was it.. BAe?

Hi guys,

Here’s my take on the considerations you have been “leaving on this (virtual) table”.

There seems to have happened a significant evaluation shift regarding defense geopolitical usefulness inside the Brazilian political establishment. Although the recently defeated oposition party still seems to believe that Brazil has a certain “niche” to fill, a particular “role” play inside the concert of nations and that this niche/role is to play second fiddle to the US and Europe, significant operators inside the the newly elected president’s party (PT) seem ready to believe that the global geopolitical stage is ripe for a new main player and that we cannot move up to seize this oportunity if we do not exibit a consistent military force able to be projected worldwide inside UN mandated peacekeeping missions. Since these guyus are in power now I believe we are soon to watch a growing involvemente of Brazilian politicians and subsequently military hardware probably in the shape naval ships, transport aircraft and who kows, even COIN turboprop powered ground attack aircraft…

This is the geostrategic opening that could just be very interesting for China / Pakistan. So is the creation of the new Embraer Security and Defense. Thanks for sharing these insights.

One important news item that may have escaped your attention was the creation in early December 2010 of a new company, Embraer Security and Defense, this new entity will boast a totaly separate administration council from corporate parent Embraer. This decision was taken for two distinct reasons, first to allow embraer to enter into non-aviation businesses and second to try to isolate and shield the civilian commercial business (which is responsible for the lion’s share of corporate profits) from potential economical embargos or import restrictions related to military exports to non-US favored client states…

On the first editiion of the Estrategia Nacional de Defesa (END) there was reference of a hypotetical “FX-BR” program that would be a nationally developed light supersonic fighter that would replace F-5M and AMX after the conclusion of the F-X2 main fighter requirement was concluded. There is no clear picture at this time who inserted this program inside the END and how it fits inside the repeated news that the FAB fighter fleet would be expanded to around 200 aircraft from the current 120.

That must be most interesting that they included replacement for F-5M and AMX. Along with a major expansion of the fleet, this IMHO puts the JF-17 right on the money. I can’t think of a fighter that could better fit that bill.

Let’s suppose that just for arguments sake that everything is returned to zero once again and that other players are allowed in. Could the Russins come back? I think so, they ran a great race and suprised everyone, specially Embraer by finishing second in the F-X1. Eurofighter as I see would have a very complex task to paint itself as something other than “Rafale II”, another very expensive although very capable aircraft, probably priced outside Brazilian Air Force economic reality… The Chinese today are inequivocably a story of “good, fast & furious” evolution , as can atest any global military issues observer looking at J-10 and the new J-20 aircraft. Brazil has already come very close to purchasing Chinese manufactured J-7s in the 80’s. Could we end up eventually buying considerable numbers of chinese fighters, possibly, would it iy happen now or in the near future? I’m not sure, there is still strong doubts in Brazil about the wiseness of getting to close to the Chinese especially in very expensive and critical items such as fighter airplanes. Certainly as chinese branded and manufactured goods general quality standards continue to evolve we may see a reduction in the Brazilian military’s distrust to them and their products.

Even the Pakistanis were distrustful of early Chinese military aircraft. I recall that the F-6s had Martin Baker ejection seats installed that cost more than the plane!

However, things certainly have moved well along. Further, a lot of the problems have related to quality of manufacturing (again not a problem today IMHO). That issue is virtually eliminated if manufacturing takes place in Brazil. Pakistan’s Kamra based Pakistan Aeronautical Complex has bought a large number of its tooling from Western and other foreign sources. You can see the quality of the manufacturing in the models of the JF-17 at Farnborough. If I recall, many attendants mistook it for a Swedish plane.
http://cdn-www.airliners.net/aviation-photos/photos/3/3/6/1803633.jpg

Can we be interested in the current FC-1, maybe not, can the FC-1 suffer the same evolution as the J-10B in order to make it more “stealthified”? Can it be further upgraded with a western designed engine and even more advanced radar and avionics? If so maybe this could interest Brazil to join in on this project. Although naturaly simpler than the current F-X2 contenders, this evolved FC-1 could allow Brazil to economically doi the jump from the current 120 aircraft fleet to the new 200 (or even more depending on the price) aircraft stage…

The J-10B itself may be an interesting airframe for Brazil. I think that the JF-17 can do well with a third block, and in partnership with Brazil, a significant improvement is still possible. I know that the designers left room for certain western engines to be used for the JF-17. Although I’d hope Brazil chooses to build something based on their own tweaking of the WS-13. I think Brazil could really benefit from stepping up to engine manufacture. After all, its the heart of any aircraft!

Brazil can certainly add to the metallurgy of the JF-17. I’m thinking that (and I may be wrong) Embraer’s airframe expertise could easily be transferable here. After all, building light and fuel efficient airframes is something both fighters and airliners share.

Regarding the AMX, I do see that that is not really in the class for a fighter and is pretty much a dead end. Although a wonderful airplane! Most lovable. I think that the twin seater JF-17 being developed (including rumor has it an attack version) can do well to replace those. I can’t think of another airplane that can replace the AMX better. Maybe the Korean T-50? But that has its own set of problems.

Regarding an F-35, yes that would really be an upgrade for Brazil but again rather unrealistic, at least for an independent country rather than a second fiddle crony. We are all cheering for Brazil to be the former rather than the latter. I personally don’t see that big a difference between an uprated JF-17 and the Eurocanards. Of course I’ve just probably hurt the feelings of a ton of people, but really, the Eurocanards don’t appear to be worth the money they want, other than the Gripen. I really love the Gripen, more than the JF-17, but you end up with Uncle Sam all over again. We heard of Norway. And really, its not just the engines, there is other critical components as well. So really, the gripen loses out because of that. If only they could build one with a european engine!

Some other thoughts:

1. JF-17 is slated to have an AESA radar in possibly its next block
2. Composites are increasing and already incorporated. Higher percentage of composites coming in next version
3. Pakistan is financially not sound and would welcome cooperation with Brazil in a new version with open arms (IMHO)

I think just buying JF-17s or J-10Bs would be a radical decision from Brazil and would be a major signal of shifting alliances. The JF-17 would make less of a splash particularly if its an industrial collaboration between multiple partners.

JF-17 Block III “Brasilia” with RR engines or a Brazilian tweak of a WS-13 would certainly be a fun plane for any aviation enthusiast.

PS: Maybe there is even a consolation prize for all: subsystems from the Eurofighter (maybe even the engine), optics and EW from Rafale, Swedish ergonomics and comm.. there you have it, everyone wins 😉

The JF-17 is considered a 4th generation plane by the PAF and China. Brazil can build a Gripen or any other plane it chooses, its all a matter of money and time. Brazil won’t be buying the Gripen because Brazil cannot build a similar plane, but the costs and time involved is something Brazil does not wish to get into.

Building any combat aircraft today will take serious research, engineering, time and money. At least a decade of development, testing, integration, etc.

The JF-17 is nearly as effective as an f-16 Block 52. Brazil does not have enemies that need anything better. The JF-17 Block II, said to start production later this year is perhaps slated to have the following improvement:

1. LO features
2. IRST
3. AESA (?)
4. Greater composite use (JF-17 already uses composites btw)

At 15-20 million a piece, you can easily get 5-7 planes per Eurofighter. Perhaps will cost even less if you integrate your own equipment.

Pakistan and China for sure would give you the best financial terms possible and full offsets. Imagine paying for your planes with products from Embraer, Mectron and other Brazilian manufacturers. Win-Win.

You could also get reseller rights for your production line and sell your version perhaps the JF-17 Block III Brazilia 😀 to other South American countries.

What the Europeans and Americans will not give you are technologies for critical subsystems such as the engine. China could easily share the WS-13 with Brazil, already said to be flying on an FC-1.

Again, all at the cost of possibly no foreign exchange and a boon for your local industry, not only in pseudo “partnerships” but in real TOT coupled with actual purchases of your equipment.

PS:

@Hammer, thanks for the reply. You’ve totally backed up my hopes there. I’m thinking of starting on a campaign to write something in Brazilian newspapers about the JF-17. My above post was written before seeing your reply and I really do hope something can happen regarding a Brazilian JF-17, perhaps a very different beast from the PAF and PLAAF versions.
I’ll reply to your post in my next post, need to get back to making $$$.

@rayrubik not sure but “grande strategy” sounds like the right name for something related to south america 😀

Well, these are fighter aircraft we are talking about, not your local store pudding mix. Building a fighter like the JF-17 isn’t as easy as some of us make it out to be 😉

@Hammer, what are the chances of the JF-17 / FC-1 getting a shot at this? Here are some positives to consider:

1. Real TOT with your own production line and permit to resell in South America (IMHO)
2. Integration of some of Brazil’s weapons are already done by Pakistan.
3. Integration of Brazilian systems would be relatively simple given the open architecture
4 Cheap. A small fraction of the price to both buy and operate
5. No politics of being tied to US equipment, EU fickleness or French underhand dealing
6. Very good financing options (IMHO best anywhere)
7. Sell Brazilian equipment in return. Pakistan could easily use a number of Brazilian systems
8. Open doors to new geo-politics
9. When integrated with Brazilian refuelers, EW, AEW and ISR assets, most of its disadvantages are assuaged.
10. Would allow a far larger AF for Brazil if Brazil chose to expand, at very little extra cost.

Would love to hear your thoughts on that.