Phillip RhodesThis is in response to a number of comments made. Apologise for not attributing any response to any particular person relating to his/her comment.
The AMQs at Scampton: an eyesore? Any housing estate can be improved upon, even those that are a delight to call home, AND a home is what you make it. I am not going to ridicule any community based on the inadequacies of a few individuals who might not take pride in their gardens or homes, etc…
Elvington is being set-up as a regional GA site, similar probably to Sywell and Shoreham in size and facilities (subject to planning?). They plan to build a hangar or two and a new terminal (clubhouse)? But Elvington probably won’t be able to accommodate large aircraft (RFFS cover and hangarage). I see no reason why the Victor cannot continue to explore the runway.
Regarding the RFFS (Rescue and Fire Fighting Service) provision at Scampton. The Vulcan is clearly a Cat 6 aircraft (base on fuselage length). The RFFS provision at Scampton is one MFV (Major Foam Vehicle) and one RIV (Rapid Intervention Vehicle). If you were to operate the Vulcan out of Scampton you would probably require an additional MFV. This is the same for any airfield accommodating large aircraft.
It is much easier for any serious (large) warbird or vintage-aircraft operator to base themselves out of an established airport. Compare the cost of leasing a hangar (or building an enclave) at EMA or Birmingham or indeed at an operational RAF base and it’s going to be peanuts compared to taking over Scampton.
Turning Scampton into a giant housing estate is a negative, cynical answer, but it is a fate shared by a large number of airfields and this will continue. Some may argue that Scampton should be treated the same as Bicester. Let’s look at Bicester, which is both a conservation area and where most of the buildings have been given listed status. That means that you can’t build houses on the site and you also cannot knock most of the buildings down. Brilliant. Super. Dandy.
The problem is that the site is slowly rotting away. Why? Because there is no honey pot of FREE cash to restore the buildings and no realistic business plan in place. Please, please someone: prove me wrong…
Let’s talk money. There is none. The 2012 Olympics is siphoning off all available lottery funding away from heritage and the arts. Recession aside, commercial developers wont touch the site because property development is about profit. Also, once bought, whoever buys the site will be duty bound to spend millions on the site – either freely or through a court order.
I dearly would like to be proven wrong and I would greatly appreciate if Bicester was sympathetically preserved like Duxford. That said, the MoD will want top dollar for Bicester, which they aren’t going to realise because the buildings are protected and there are so many blocks in place to prevent what needs to be done to make any preservation project viable : i.e. the building of a limited number of houses to make any development profitable. Living museums and Duxford Mk2s are pipedreams. Yes, let’s have a small museum and let’s preserve the character of this, an icon aerodrome, but the cost of bringing the site back from the brink can never be covered or met by income generate from renting out the MT sheds or workshops (certainly not from operating a living museum).
European Funding is an option, but there are currently no plans for Bicester – not that been revealed as yet. European Funding is also reliant on location and match-funding.
Back at Scampton. I honestly believe that 80% of the buildings can be preserved, BUT that will never be profitable enough for whoever buys the site, and it will be sold to the highest bidder or someone with a track record – not of preserving sites of historical importance – but one of demolition.
Regarding English Heritage’s renewed interest in the site. In their protracted and flawed Thematic Survey into such sites, Scampton was somewhat overlooked, with only the hangars being recommended for statutory protection. The problem with the aforementioned thematic survey is that the MoD were calling the shots. A number of structures, on a number of MoD sites, were withdrawn from a list of recommendations for statutory protection, made by English Heritage, this at the bequest of the same MoD.
Yes, English Heritage have done a lot of work at Scampton producing a lot of paperwork and reports and recommendations – the same type of material that was written about Bicester. But will it matter? There are issues at stake, apart from the historical nature of Scampton: both the MoD and English Heritage made a mess of the Thematic Survey. Both parties are trying to lessen the impact (on them) resulting from the Scampton’s disposal and subsequent redevelopment.
There are always a desire for preservation and for living museums, but these demands are usually made by those with empty pockets – me included. And yes we’re usually most vocal and supportive in respect to our own, personal heritage – why do you think I keep going on about bloody RAF Driffield?
Be it RAF Driffield (okay Scampton), the recovering and restoration of that long lost “British” aeroplane (Stirling included), or the erection of a memorial to Bomber Command, it matters not. We are but mere anoraks without a voice; We argue between ourselves – though usually as a result of improper grammar or semantics (right word?); Some of us don’t want to rock the boat (naming no names). That said, it doesn’t matter because we don’t matter, and in the great scheme of things I agree – there are more important things that matter. BUT our aerodrome heritage is as important as our railway/maritime/industrial heritage OR indeed jobs or housing (BECAUSE preserving any aerodrome can provide both jobs and AFFORDABLE housing).
Feel frustrated?
You can argue and complain and scream, but it isn’t going to do you any good.
The camp at RAF Scampton will close and until the recession is over will remain unsold. That said, the MoD have a bad habit of retaining sites for years before pulling out their collective fingers. RAF Driffield closed in 1996 and was only sold in 2007. This is about average for most sites (RAF West Raynham included). The airspace over Scampton will be used by the Reds until somewhere else can be found. It all depends on whether they require an active airfield (ATC/RFFS) below them. They could move to RAF Kirton-on-Lindsey (nearby), but that is also set to close.
A few years ago I formulated a proposal… At present there are three grades of statutory protection: Grade I, Grade II* and Grade II. I believe we need to add a Grade III for structures that are important to our local heritage and wellbeing of the community; buildings which otherwise wouldn’t make the grade. A case in point is that recently in Driffield an old bank (a former Victorian family home) was demolished. This well liked building in the town centre was pulled down because it didn’t tick all the right boxes for it to be protected. The developer also thought he could secure a better return on his investment if he started afresh.
I believe that this new grade should be managed by the local authority and that, unlike the existing Grades, developers would be given greater freedom in reusing these structures, providing that the external appearance isn’t that greatly altered. New materials would also be allowed if hidden away. Basically, Grade III would prevent a structure from being demolished without good reason. Just a suggestion.
I’m not saying we can retain or protect every building on every airfield. That said, there isn’t much of a choice left anyway. We have to save Scampton and Newton and Bicester, because we cannot save the airfields that have already disappeared. BUT it isn’t going to happen, because times they are a changing. PPG3 and the demand to maximise profits make it unlikely that the aforementioned sites will be preserved. I was recently berated on another forum for going on and on about RAF Driffield, and no doubt I will be harassed/ridiculed/ignored again. The simple truth is that while I have been going on about this East Yorkshire former aerodrome for years, events and procedures and the economic climate have also changed. RAF Driffield circa 2008 is different from RAF Driffield circa 1998. I could argue that RAF Driffield circa December 2008 is totally abstract from RAF Driffield circa January 2008.
There
Time to switch off. You have to, otherwise the frustrated signals given out result in you being harassed/ridiculed/ignored again. Nothing stays the same and that is called progress. When in 15 years time Bicester, Scampton, Driffield and a few other survivors have been turned into housing estates…
…I wish I was born into British Rail and not the Royal Air Force – much easier to save a signal box or restore an old railway carriage! 😮
Phillip RhodesPoint taken about priorities. Personally I would like to redeploy a few of those inept paper pushers from Whitehall to the front line in Afghanistan, and show them the errors of their ways, namely equipment that doesn’t work or that comes on-stream too late and over budget. There are too many paper pushers running this country – individuals who don’t appreciate the qualities of “if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it” and “keep is simple, stupid”.
Just out of interest, how much does a brand new Hawk 128 cost to buy? Taking into account the annual cost of running the reds, perhaps a PFI deal might be an option. Not sure but I think the choppers of No.84 Squadron in Cyprus are privately owned, as are a few other RAF operated aircraft. Perhaps BAe Systems might want to build a new display team and rent them out to the MoD. Off course the way these PFI schemes are contracted (schools and hospitals), the taxpayer will probably end up paying twice as much.
I wonder if they can build a budget Hawk 128?
Phillip Rhodesits northern if you live in london
The North can clearly be defined as being anywhere North of the blue and white sign positioned at the beginning of the A1 or M1 (beyond the M25) that clearly says TO THE NORTH :rolleyes:
Phillip RhodesJust thinking on this, I’m sure the company that produced the series was called Berriff And Beneriff, who was Mr Beneriff and what was his input in the series?
Paul Berriff: Local Chap – lived in Hessle and made loads of documentaries. He produced, directed and filmed mostly on 16mm film. I think he was one of the last to switch to video.
He made a film (maybe a series) about the Humber Lifeboat (he was a volunteer coastguard) and another film about Hull’s Central Fire Station – trained to use BA so he could film inside burning buildings, both in the 1980s. He filmed Piper Alpha (as part of the Rescue series) and he also made a film about NASA (1990s). I think the last thing he did was film the FDNY in action. He was at ground-zero before it was ground-zero – filming fire-fighters on 9/11 and was almost killed when the twin towers came down. He was well respected for not getting in the way, while filming right in the action.
Sadly his kind of film-making – taking his time to film “as it happens” – became too expensive. He told a story that involved action – but not wall to wall action that commissioning editors now demand. His films told the story over many months of filming about those involved (fire-fighter, lifeboat man, trainee astronaut, SAR aircrew), where the action played its part.
Phillip RhodesRescue was filmed by Paul Berriff
Check out: http://www.lynnnews.co.uk/community/Defying-death-behind-the-lens.928413.jp, which would indicate he has retired from film-making.
The article is dated 2005, but he might still own http://www.theneptune.co.uk/. You could always email them? Maybe you can convince him to put the series on DVD. Hold on…
…Nope, nothing on eBay. And nothing on Play.com. Maybe DD Video might be a good company to talk to about a DVD. I have loads of there titles. Excellent company.
Regards
Phil Rhodes
P.S. You know I’m sure it’s been on DVD, but I can’t find anything online.
Phillip RhodesMe, a little tad cynical? NEVER!!! 🙂
I’m just a realist. Our aerodrome heritage is basically screwed. We are a minority – with only a few of us actually caring enough to put pen to paper.
David, what vintage airliners? They’ve all been scrapped and those that haven’t are beyond economic repair. Also, running a complex site like Scampton for large vintage aircraft is extremely expensive – that’s why those large collections that are up ‘n’ running are located at existing airports.
Scampton isn’t that far from Lincoln – similar distance as Swinderby and Skellingthorpe. People having cars and TESCO, ASDA et al do build out of town.
Thing is, Scampton can be preserved and developed. The problem is that developers like to clear the slate – remove virtually everything on site and then build as many houses that they can get away with. It’s not about making money either, it’s about making as much money as legally possibly.
In some developments a house builder will apologise for the miniscule size of the gardens on offer. The house builder will usually proportion blame on government guidelines restricting the size. What the developer or house builder wont admit to is that smaller gardens equate to more houses and thus more profit.
I don’t have a plan of Scampton to hand, but I would imagine:
The accommodation blocks can be converted into spacious apartments (with ample space for off-street cark-parking). There will be ample space to build additional houses, both within the main camp area and around the airfield – creating small villages located on or near the bomb dump and V-Force hard standings. The concrete will probably be removed (valuable hardcore) and the airfield might work as an all grass landing field, albeit one reduced in size.
The hangars are protected (storage and business units), while the officer’s mess can work as a museum/hotel or residential home. There are other technical buildings that can be reused as business units. The knack is to secure business users from other sites, which themselves can be profitably redeveloped for housing. An example: document storage in and around Leeds is expensive. Most documents are only kept as an legal requirement. Most wont see the light of day, but it’s expensive to store them in areas where land is at a premium. Moving documents to Scampton or Driffield or Newton or Bicester would be profitable. It would also secure the future of some structures, including hangars (which are too valuable to house aeroplanes).
How many businesses or governmental departments could profit from relocating to Scampton? One idea, which now wont see the light of day, involved suggesting that the Humberside Fire and Rescue training facilities be moved to Driffield (technical site) from Hull, where income from housing building would make any move financially rewarding for tax-payers. Manby is a good example of what could happen.
Aviation at any site can and will only be a token gesture – a homage to the past. I personally would like to see gliding promoted in the UK, because many more private individuals can afford to take up this sport – individuals who otherwise might not be able to afford other premium sports.
Regarding the condition of aerodrome structures. Most buildings can be economically and profitably turned round, but not all of them. What do you do with a firing range (health and safety implications) or the solid fuel store or decontamination centre? The problem is that preservation through profitable redevelopment wouldn’t be profitable enough for most developers. Regarding the condition of AMQs. My preferred bidder at Driffield was a man with 30 years experience in renovating such properties. I showed his team around Driffield. They weren’t concerned by their condition.
The problem with Scampton and Driffield and Newton a few other sites was and still is Binbrook. If there is one site that clearly scared planners and the MoD it was the shameful way that RAF Binbrook was exploited in the name of greed and a quick buck. I’m not going to write about what went wrong at Binbrook, just check out: http://www.northumberlandinfonet.org.uk/Media/Reports/WorkingPaper46.pdf.
Can AMQs, even those vacated and disused for years be refurbished and sold? Yes: http://www.westraynhampark.com/. Not sure if this link still works (not on my PC), but Roger Collins, then Roger Gawn who bought the site quickly restored the AMQs to a high standard and were (before the credit crunch) quickly snapped up.
I think the common consensus is that Scampton is doomed as are the few remaining sites that are still intact. A few years ago someone said to me why bother about [RAF] Driffield when there are other sites still dotted around the UK. Well, their future shares the same fate as Driffield. No aerodrome is safe. Not anymore.
Can we do anything? No, not really. Well, not without attracting the venomous derision and soul-destroying ridicule (and/or silence) of developer, planner and apathetic enthusiast alike.
Phillip RhodesMONEY MONEY MONEY
It’s all down to money – or rather profit. Yes, there are around a million empty houses in the UK, but it’s cheaper and quicker to built anew. Also, new houses are easier to sell to the Ikea Generation.
A few miles from Scampton both Skellingthorpe and Swinderby have been trashed by property developers, with little remaining of the domestic site at Swinderby. Other sites will follow, including Bicester, given time (listed buildings can be delisted).
With a direct rail link from Lincoln to London on the cards, local developers will want more and more land near this attractive and popular Northern city. With recent changes to planning guidelines for house builders (PPG3), it will now be childsplay to built on any airfield, even one as historic as Scampton.
There is little anyone can do. Get use to it…
Phillip RhodesIt matters not when RAF Scampton is vacated, it’s future is assured: Housing! Not today or tomorrow, but when the recession is over, then the house builders will move in.
The airfield is now considered brownfield land and will be built on. Apart from perhaps the hangars (listed), guardroom, station headquarters and officer’s mess, the rest of the camp (sans houses) will be demolished. There is no historical importance at Scampton the developers will argue, simply because no one can define or quantify historical value. And there are other ways of preserving the past – through naming roads and avenues and cul-de-sacs and closes, etc, etc, etc.
Off course the developers will get their way through empty promises of building affordable houses. But what they wont tell you is that it’s a sly con. They will say that yes, guidelines do stipulate that for very large developments a proportion of houses built have to be affordable, but developers don’t create large developments. At Scampton they will knock everything down and sell the site in small parcels of land to different house builders. These same guidelines wont apply then. So the number of unprofitable affordable houses will be minimal compared to more profitable executive homes.
Green open spaces and attractive lakes that appear in conceptual drawings (Coltishall and Dunsfold) will also disappear once the site starts to bulk out. Green, open spaces (parks and playgrounds) are for losers and nut jobs (in other words those planners who believe the hype).
Wow, 260 words and I haven’t even mentioned RAF Driffield. Better not! Let’s talk about Upwood then or Newton or Kirton-on-Lindsey or Coltishall or Lyneham or…
Personally I don’t give a flying banana up one’s bottom about Scampton or any other site for that matter (on a really, really bad day that list would include RAF Driffield), simply because no one else cares enough to do anything themselves, other than ridicule those who do care and bang the drum. This probably because they don’t have the balls or (more likely) know that to become vocal is to be ridiculed and worse, oh much worse…
Also, it’s a done deal. The war was over 60 years ago. It’s history (just) and not important enough to be accommodated. I use the word accommodated because yes we need housing (albeit that which developers naturally shy away from: affordable homes) but we can preserve Scampton at the same time, while creating a development that accommodates both our past and our future.
We have sold our heritage to the highest bidder and god help anyone who gets in the way. I live in Hull – not far from the Rank Hovis mill next to Drypool Bridge. The mill closed a few years ago. Now this sturdy structure, which is probably Hull’s highest structure, can be converted into apartments (easy and profitable), but once the recession is over this part of Hull’s diminishing heritage it will be knocked down and they will build a new structure – same size – but twice as expensive, only to serve the same role. But the developer got his way. There was some local opposition, but…
Regarding the Red Arrows; when they are reduced from nine to seven or five aircraft or change from Hawk to something cheaper and move to Waddington (they can simply build a new hangar on the other side of the runway) or back to Cranwell, there will be no need for Scampton. Get use to it. It’s only an aerodrome.
To recap:
1 The BBC reported this year that the Red Arrows are moving to Waddington, though they will be using the airspace over Scampton (or Barkston Heath).
2. HHA can easily move to another ‘idle’ airfield (Barkston Heath or Church Fenton?).
3. XH588 will stay put. Moving her to Scampton would mean increasing the level of fire-fighting cover (another MFV and crew) and more expense.
4. Developers have more money and better paid experts (paid being the operative word) to argue there corner. It’s a done deal – same with all the other ‘historic’ sites that others hope will save the day.
6. There are too many active airfields and minor airports anyway.
7. I can foresee a time when you will have the RAF operating out of fenced and guarded enclaves at civilian airports. Love to see the Cambridge UAS operate from “RAF” Duxford. Woodvale could move to Manchester Barton.
Friday Night Rant Over!!!
Phillip RhodesThere are over 200 aircraft wrecks in Antarctica from memory including some real gems.
David – WOW, do you have a list of these 200 wrecks?
Phillip RhodesWhy am I thinking of a large winged, flying missile, which had a very short range? Painted Red? Maybe only a development weapon and not deployed?
Phillip RhodesHello Laurie
Many thanks for the information – very useful and very much appreciated.
Working on the first in a series of profiles detailing aircraft based at RAF Driffield 1936 to 1957. The first print is Meteor T7 WA591 which was with No.203 AFS. The 16in x 12in print will also feature the RAF Driffield station badge (Kings Crown) and the Flying Training Command badge. My only concern relates to dates. I don’t mind using the RAF Driffield station badges on all the six prints in the series, even though it was only issued just prior to the death of King George VI.
What concerns me is the Flying Training Badge. If according to In Ken Delve’s “The Source Book of the RAF”, 203 AFS is shown as coming under 24 Gp, Flying Training Command in April 1953, this means I am unable to use the badge as it is also Kings Crown. I’m confused…
Phillip RhodesA bit more detail such as a first name or initial or maybe his job would give people a little bit more to go on.
Regards,
kev35
Hello Kev35
I have emailed the gentleman who wrote to me on behalf of the 87 year old WAAF, who know this Squadron Leader. Hopefullly we shall secure some more information. I keep asking forum members for information and I am always appreciative. I only wish I could be as helpful.
Phil Rhodes
Phillip RhodesCheck out: http://www.largemodelassociation.com/featured_aircraft.htm
I found the DH Comet 4 and C17 really impressive. That said, I wouldn’t want to build one and then have it crash: http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=mSuawMl4lOo
OUCH!
Phillip RhodesDo you know if they digitally airbrushed out the modern cars parked in the background in some scenes or the microphones that sometimes crept into one or two shots (mostly in the first episode). Most annoying…
Regards
Phil Rhodes
Phillip RhodesAre ASDA still selling these models and are they Series Two or Series Three?
Home Bargains were selling off Corgi’s stock of Series Two for £2.99 a few months ago and I secured almost the entire series. As you know Corgi went belly-up and sold their models to Home Bargains for 50p each.
Does anyone know which stores are selling these models
Regards
Phil Rhodes
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