PLA-MKIII disagree with the nay-sayers. The LCA is a great success, and its being kept hushed-up from a Sun-Tzu strategy. I think it is only a matter of time before the world gets to know about it. 🙂
My sources tell me there are even stealth features being incorporated in this baby! 😮
PLA-MKIIPakistani F-6s before they were retired. Was a technical marvel because nobody thought it was possible, given the thin wings of the F-6.
I also had the opportunity to see first hand a true enigma – a Pakistani F-7P. I recall in the mid 1990s I visited a PAF base and saw an F-7 (which is originally derived from a Russian MiG-21), with British (MB) ejection seats, Italian radar, American sidewinder, unknown avionics fit, and a different IFF. My guess is the plane incorporated items from the following countries:
1. Russia (ala MiG-21 derived)
2. China
3. Pakistan
4. US
5. French
6. Italian
7. South African
8. ??
A mongrel if there ever was one
PLA-MKIIThe politics and rivalry go too far back and are too deeply entrenched for the Rafale to ever be in the RAF. I see a severely curtailed and delayed JSF order.
PLA-MKIIhow about the same engine just remade using today’s technologies and materials – better maintenance and fuel economy.
PLA-MKIIPsychological effect of it.. hmm.. I think thats why the F-16s made so much sense for PAF. The IAF spent a generation strategizing how to counter them. I wonder if the J-10 will have the same impact.
PLA-MKIIThanks guys, this has turned out to be a good discussion. Let me see, why exactly is re-engining them so hard? Look, you take out the old ones, then you put new ones in.. 😀
Let me try that again… now slowly.. you take them out… then put new ones back in.. 😮
PLA-MKIIWell,first off,I’m NOT trying to start a flame war,but the F-14 would do in my opinion a pretty good job,but remember,its just a part of the overall Iranian AD system.
The F-14,with its Phoenix missiles(and YES,Iran still has them) along with the SA-10 SAMs make up the the long range defense while the Fulcrums,Phantom IIs and HAWKs make up the medium range and the shorter ranged SA-15 and F-7 Fishbeds and F-5 Tiger IIs do the point defense work.
Now,remember the F-14 was designed and built to counter long range bombers and cruise missiles.So,taking down say,Tomahawk cruise missiles,B-1s or B-52s would be no problem.I’d also throw in AWACS since an F-14 could launch a Phoenix still in Iranain airspace and hit an E-3 over friendly airspace over the Persian Gulf,Iraq,or Saudi Arabia.Taking down high priority targets would be the F-14s bread and butter.
So,in conclusion,I think everything up to a B-2 could be taken down by a Tomcat.And as far as USAF sending in their F-22s,I wouldn’t count on it.Imagine if,just if,one of those Raptors got splashed by Tiger II or Fishbed.Laugh,but Mig-17s were downing much more advanced Phantom IIs over Vietnam.It could happen.Therefore,the USAF might be reluctant to deploy the Raptors just as they did with the Osprey in Iraq.
So,I think the biggest threat would be the Subpar Hornet and those maybe of some value,maybe absorbe a Phoenix that would have otherwise taken down a Hawkeye.
Heres the thing to end all,Iran isn’t stupid they’re expecting an attack sooner or later,and know the general directions it could come from.They are well motivated and well trained.They also know what our aircraft and cruise missiles look like on radar.If they see a strike force headed from Israel,they’re launching their IRBMs,no question.The AD is there just to protect the missiles long enough for them to get off the ground.Sure the Isrealis will kick ass,but might not have anywhere to go home to afterward.
Assuming Iran has WMDs,the performance of the Tomcat against the Super Hornet becomes irrelivent because the Tomcat is only going to have to survive long enough for those weapons to be used.
The best analysis I have read thus far on a possible scenario! Thanks a bunch! There are a couple of twists though:
1. Surprise attack from the north using Georgia or other central asian bases, we know the US can and Israel also has cultivated relationships there.
2. Attack from the South – presumably from “secret” ethiopian (eritrean?) bases that Israel is rumored to have.
3. Combined strike from all sides and involving the US and its chums (including Britain and others).
4. IRBMS tracked over Iraq and taken down. (Kuwait unlikely to survive)
5. Cruise missiles take out major assets beforehand.
I am almost certain this will happen. My guestimate is 9-11 or some other such funky date. lately all the “moves” are being organized on “funny” dates. notice georgia 8-8-8.
Thanks again. I’ll let the topic continue now without any more diversions.
Here is a cool pic of an iranian F-5:
http://eldib.files.wordpress.com/2007/10/f5_aut.jpg
(at least I think it is Iranian?)
PLA-MKIIAD and no fighters. After Russia is through dismantling them, they are going to be one really backward country. I’d think even AD would be too rich for them then..
Since I am routing for Russia here, I hope they find a way to take out that pipeline while they are there..
PLA-MKIIThe taught marketing approach is to solve User’s Need, as opposed to sales -peddling the product you invented remote from this User and a couple of decades ago.
So you must massage his Need to display how it is met precisely by your product, even if (especially if) it is not. See: F-104G.
When (to be Tornado) lost to CF-18 (Canada) and F-16 (Belgium, Neth.), their Need was redefined from big, deep strike+recce, to near CAS+local intercept.
Did Buyer’s fundmasters do that redefinition…or did MDC/GD put the notion in their minds, that they would get more hours p.a from the cheaper type? If deep penetration had remained the Need, CF-18/F-16 could not have been bid.
So, today: to stealth, or not? If Lockheed succeeds in lodging the notion in Buyer’s head that it is key, then Eurocanards, MiGs, Sukhois, F-15, F/A-18 are out.The exact A to your Q is: cause Buyer to accept that Seller will solve his problems. So, if he has flown USSR types, address spares, manuals, field support, because USSR never did; if he has flown US types, cause him to bask, knowing the high priority you will give to him…because US didn’t/doesn’t; if he has flown French types, give him a library of lists with price/delivery leadtime on tyres and bits and bobs, because France didn’t/doesn’t.
The analogy is Embraer/Bombardier, new entrants breaking in >1,000 RJs each to sectors dominated by the uncaring. Because they pitched as sharing the pain of reliable operation.
Those are some marvelous pointers and adds to what djcross was saying. I guess one would have to do the dirty work of first determining every single possible buyer and then thoroughly study each of them and build a customized plan for each. This would be quite a task!
PLA-MKIILooking for a few of the following:
SA-365N Dauphin II-Romania
RE-3A Sentry-Saudi Arabia
F-15D Eagle-Saudi Arabia
Mirage F.1AD-Libya
Mirage F.1BD-Libya
Su-25/UB Frogfoot-Armenia
L-39 Albatross-Armenia
Mi-24 Hind-Armenia
Su-27/UB Flanker-Ethiopia
Su-27/UB Flanker-Uzbekistan
Anything from Indonesia
Export/Ex-USSR republic Mi-26 HalosBTW did Vietnam EVER operate any model of the Flogger (i’m thinking the BN would have been most likely,but then I think maybe someone confused the Flogger for the Fitter,which they did operate)
A little off-topic, but given your handle, do you think the F-14s stand a chance defending iran soon?
PLA-MKIIThere’s a good deal of truth to this. The planes doing the best internationally are oftentimes the ones with the combat kills to back up their claims. The F-15, F-16, and Su-27 have all proven themselves in international, shooting war air-to-air combat.
I love the MiG-29. I think it’s beautiful, under-rated, under-appreciated, and very much a bargain on the international fighter market, but it is not helped one bit that its been on the losing end of numerous air-to-air engagements since 1991. It may have been up against insurmountable odds in most cases, but that doesn’t help a lot on the international arms market.
Combat stars can lead to dollar signs very quickly. I think there’s an element of that in the recent F-15 wins against the Eurocanards. The Eurocanards can say that they’re superior to Russian fighters, but the F-15 just has to point to a scoreboard.
It doesn’t hurt to be built in a country with some political influence on the international scene (say, the US vs Sweden).
Logan Hartke
Just curious, what is it that makes the MiG-29 so special? Not that I am for or against it (before either mafia hijacks..)
more replies coming to a location near you soon..
PLA-MKIII think “affordability” and “interoperability” would be the two key words of my marketing campaign.
Affordability: Because the quantum leap in tehcnology, defence and aerospace technology in general, made weapon systems more and more expensive, difficult to operate and maintain. If a fighter capable and advanced enough to counter modern day threats yet with a logical price, than this would certainly be some advantage. It does not necessarily be affordable, it’s ok even if it seems like one 🙂
Interoperability: Be regional powers or small states, joint operations are becoming more and more important. A weapon system capable of communicating with other countries’ systems is a force multiplier. In modern days, especially after 9/11, conducting a joint exercise with a regional power can be more deterrent than say, making a fancy Soviet style parade.
I think both points are good given how expensive fighters are today and how the cheapest ones – like an F-7G are no where near interoperable for NATO or NATO wannabe countries. I see the Korean effort being very interoperable but not sure how combat effective and cost effective it will be. The Gripen was Ideal but the NG kind of ruins it a bit in terms of being cost effective.
PLA-MKIItechnology between the P-51 and the shooting star was moving in leaps and bounds. Today technology is still moving but often with high compromises. this makes them a not apple-to-apple comparison.
In any case, I don’t see the Swedes succeeding without a European power plant.
PLA-MKIIhaha Jack hit the Jackpot! so to speak 😀
I need to write responses for all the good ideas starting from Orko onwards (with Jack bagging the Grand prize). I’ll get back to this in a quick 24 hour turn around (hopefully).
PLA-MKIISome of these countries don’t count, like the OV-10s don’t count they are not Jets! also the dutch don’t count. Saudi Arabia??? Where? I don’t think the list is that big at all. Also, how many did argentina shoot down?
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